Another reason to not like America

**incognito** · 06-08-2002

Originally posted by Shiro
>I sincerely doubt that they'd use violence.

Well, I also doubt it. But it is just the idea. The idea that they have accepted that law.

>It usually is, but could you imagine what would have ensued if
>we tried to sit down and have a pow-wow with Hitler?

In the beginning, countries were really friendly against Hitler. The violence started when he began the war. And ofcourse then you can't have a nice chat with him and ask to stop. But that is a very different situation from this. There are people who are caught since they are suspected from war crimes and therefor they are brought to the trial. If their trial is unfair, then it is strange to use violent to get them away isn't it? There would be so many other non-violent solutions to solve that situation.

>but some people aren't - some people just want war, etc.

Yes, it is sad but it is true. BTW, I'm not a hippie, at least I think I'm not, I'm just someone who is against violence.

Ok I am sure that if the US thought that a trial was unfair (maybe because a large part of this "jury" was from a country that hated the US) that the US would try to solve this without violence but if every effort fails, like I said before you gotta do what you gotta do.

**Shiro** · 06-08-2002

>Well I am not saying that they should use violence but if all
>other tactics fail, guess you gotta do what you gotta do buddy.

I wonder if other tactics will fail. I think that economical sanctions will help quite a lot.

But how do you think a trial can be proven unfair? I'm really wondering about this. If a trial is unfair, then there is nothing to fear for the one being judged. There will be a new trial. The only thing is that the person is still not proven guilty or not guilty, which may lead to a longer arrest. It will also lead to a large decrease of trust in the International Court. But I think the judges in a case will only be from neutral countries.

**incognito** · 06-08-2002

Ok if there is no way that you can say that a trial can be fair or unfair, which I think it's obvious at times to find out. Then how do you decide what a neutral country is?

**Shiro** · 06-08-2002

That's also a hard question. A judge should be neutral, whatever his/her background is. Let's say that a neutral country is a country which is not involved military in the war or conflict. Ofcourse there are always reasons to find countries not neutral, economical reasons for example.

**incognito** · 06-08-2002

Let me point out something I just realized, the tittle of this thread "Another reason not to like America", that sounds that you don't like Americans....you could've said, "Another reason why not like American politics".

**incognito** · 06-08-2002

basically what it boils down to, this "international court" is a bad idea, unless the US has the ability to withdraw their citizens if they think is an unfair trial, then I think that this idea shouldn't fly.

**Shiro** · 06-08-2002

Yes, I realise that the title is wrong. And perhaps I should have made it more personal, since this is a reason for me not to like American politics. And there sure are American political initiatives I like, for example their economical supports and their role in the Istrael-Palestina conflicts. This is just one of the things I don't like. So the title should have been: "Another thing I don't like of American politics".

**Shiro** · 06-08-2002

Every country, not just the US, should have the possibility to help their citizen if they find that the trial is unfair. I don't know what the International Court will do when a party says that the trial is unfair. I'll have to read some more about that.

**-KEN-** · 06-08-2002

Exactly, you shouldn't have to be forced to have your men tried in this court. It should be voluntary of the country...

**-KEN-** · 06-08-2002

There should be sort of a double edge to this, though. What if a corrupt government demands their soldiers be released?

I have a feeling that this will become as impotent as NATO's predecessor.

**Shiro** · 06-08-2002

So you mean that if someone is suspected for war crimes, then the country where that person lives should bring that person to the court? And what if it doesn't, then it is possible that war criminals are not judged.

**Sorensen** · 06-08-2002

>unless the US has the ability to withdraw their citizens if they think is an unfair trial, then I think that this idea shouldn't fly

Fair enough, but it defeats the point. Would you agree to somewhere like Iraq withdrawing their citizens if they deem the trial to be unfair?

A fair proportion of war crimes could be seen as state sponsored so if the perpetrators are still in power it would make no sense for them to do otherwise. How many mothers would have withdrawn their sons from facing the death penalty (or imprisonment) given the opportunity, regardless of their guilt or percieved fairness of the court.

Anyway, I doubt this applies to the US because I'm sure they would never break any anti-war crime treaties (tee hee).

**-KEN-** · 06-08-2002

Which is why I say this is a bad idea. People shuoldn't be forced to be tried on unfarmiliar grounds, but if the crime has to be judged and the country won't judge it, force would have to be used to extract the people - and that just plain sucks.

Unregistered · 06-08-2002

>>If their citizens are innocent, then there is no need to rescue<<

you are completely wrong here, and even a bigger dolt than i first thought...So you don't think it's possible for an innocent to be found guilty? That's laughable especially when so many people in the rest of the world dislike the US...

>>Protection against what? <<

unfair trial...bogus governments and laws...and the biggest thing CRIMINAL prosecution in a foreign country. Remember when i asked you to state the difference betweent the ICC and IWCT? Why didn't you? maybe you didn't know that the ICC's proposed power goes way beyond war crimes. it includes ANY violation of international law (laws made now and in the future) outside of war. This is one more step towards a world government with it's own set of criminal and civil laws. No American will stand to be tried in the Netherlands for anything. US citizens are entitled the protections of its constitution, and the Senate isn't going to let that change, and if it comes to it, will probably fight for it.

i'm sorry you can't understand that...your loss...dopey...