ambiguity sp is not amusing - musharraf is a reformed man...but that statement he keeps repeating..."we will not initiate war" is no good, man...he isn't saying that he won't use nukes....he's saying that if paki is attacked, by any means...nuclear or not...he WILL use nuclear weapons in response.
lebios
Well we did not loose the kargil war like you said.. And we did not ask clinton to ask pakistant o sop it.. And mind it our leaders never went running to Washington but it was you leader Nawab Sherrif who ran like a rat to washington to stop the war.. Why should he run there helter skelter if he wanted to continue it... And our leaders were no rats like him and stayed in India....
And why do you think US would support India now if India was wrong.. they know pakistan is the root cause of taliban and terrorists... And dont you remember how blun Clinton was to Sherrif.. And now dont you see how blunt Bush is to Musharaf.. It looks as though bush is pointing to Musharaf and saying.. "GENERAL you first keep up your promise...". Well then according to you Pakistan is fighting for Kashmir for water.. Who ever will take that silly joke.. Well you pakistanis never live in peace.. You even fight among your own religion.. The sunis and sheas..
furrukhsana and you seem to be the same person with different ID... So it looks like you are a pakistani and.. dosent it seem akward a person changing his id to post to make evry one feel that many people are opposing.. Your IP will reveal everything.. That you are from the same person from the same location etc etc..... And stop this double talk.. You seem like your leader musharaf where you have different faces.. And you have to one is furrukhsana and the other is Zeeshan .. Well leader like subjects i guess.....
>> A survey by an british NGO reveals that majority of Kashmiris want to join India..
That's great...So, why don't you guys just hold a referendum in Kashmir following the UN Resolution that Mr. Jawaharlal Nehru (the first prime minister of India) signed.
It's all that Pakistan has been repeatedly asking for. If India wins she can even have PoK (the so called, Pakistan Occupied Kashmir). If you guys are so confident that the people of Kashmir are with India, what's the problem ? Afterwards, it won't be a disputed territory anymore. India will rightfully own it. Then , you can shutdown every Pakistani mouth who calls kashmir his territory.. PROBLEM SOLVED - right ???
>> he's saying that if paki is attacked, by any means...nuclear or not...he WILL use nuclear weapons in response
He has not said that he "WILL" use nuclear weapons in response. He said that he "MIGHT HAVE TO" use nuclear weapons in response. That's not something very new or amazing, it is something very obvious. Nukes have not been developed for mere show-off. Both, the countries have more than 65% of their population below the poverty line. They can't just waste their money on SHOWING OFF. Nukes have been created for use. If a country invades your country, won't your guys fight back as much as possible.
Secondly, the military supremacy of India over Pakistan is not hidden. Everybody knows it. Pakistan, in the case of an intense war WILL HAVE TO use nukes. That's what they're for.
>> If pakistan loves Kashmir so much why did it give away a part to China
This shows the good will of Pakistan. Pakistan does love Kashmir (for reasons, some of which have been mentioned above), but she is also a JUST country. The part of Kashmir which you have mentioned was a disputed territory b/w Pakistan and China. China obtained freedom two years after Pakistan & India. The Chinese and the Pakistani sat on a table. They discussed the issue, surveys were conducted; Pakistan found out that the fore-mentioned part rightfully belonged to China. So, it peacefully gave away that part to China. Similarly, if you people hold a just referendum (in the moderation of the UN and other third parties) and you win that referendum, Pakistan will have to give its PoK and with hold it's demand for the IoK (Indian Occupied Kashmir).
This fore-mentioned act show Pakistan's justice. When it came to know, that it was at fault and China was right. It gave away the part of Kashmir which rightfully belonged to China.
>> Wll India has an establsihed Nuclear Doctrine of no first use... So no way India will use it first.
Decision to use nukes is a very intense act. Such an action will have to be taken under very restricted conditions. If such a condition occupies any country, it's policies and doctrine, would be the last thing the army would ponder about.
Let's say if a bigger power invades India, just for an example, let China intensely attack India. In such circumstances, would India still follow it's NO FIRST USE OF NUKES policy? Think again....I don't think so.
my dear not sso friendly'
first of all my ip must have revealed to you that i am not the same person who you think i am and now some answers
first there is a guy who says that why does not musharaf says that he is not going to use nukes. the point is that if country is kept away from getting conventional weapons ( for defence ) like pakistan is being and its enemy is fully suported to buy weapons & defence technology of billions & billions of dollars from Russia & Israel what will it depend upon for its defence. obviously that country will depend upon weapons which she can develop itself unfortunately in this case like nukes. when such a country is attacked and for instance starts loosing ground(just for proving my point) so coming to an end would not it use its last but the only remaining chance of survival. pakistan designed its nuclear program only after india b/c there was a danger to its sovereignity and tested its nukes only after india did and now if there is a time to come to use it as the last choice (if for example) we just do not let indian take over us by conventional weapons and we siting ducks with our nukes.my dear we did not made it just for nothing.Pakistan has only said this b/c it thinks that depending on cconventional weapons will give india a edge through its pile of weaponry which it has collected over the year and hence will give it " licence to kill"
the second answer is to you vaasant that why shariif went to lahore.so my answer is sshort and if you know the facts, they say it was your dear bill clinton who invited him to washington, he did not went there on a "self invitation"
and one more thing you vaasant, talked about that shea sunni thing haa. now what about that hindu-muslim riots in indian state of Gujrat. i guess that rightly depicts indian want for "PEACE"
shake that little attitude of yours & start talking "JUSTICE", will you
>> And now dont you see how blunt Bush is to Musharaf
Excuse me!
1. Bush is not blunt to Musharraf or anything. And when did you hear Musharraf promising to hand-over Kashmir to India. He promised that he would try his best to stop any religious extremism in his own country. He has kept his promise. On the other hand, religious extremism in your country seems to be at the top. Why do you guys keep forgetting the very recent GUJARAT HAPPENINGS? where thousands of muslims were killed at the hands of Hindu extremists.
2. Even if Bush were blunt to Musharraf. So what ? Do you think Bush is God ? Do you think every act that America does is fair and just ? Well, think again...The only nukes USED uptill now were used by the King himself.
>> Well then according to you Pakistan is fighting for Kashmir for water.. Who ever will take that silly joke.. Well you pakistanis never live in peace..
Of course Pakistan is NOT fighting for Kashmir for water. Pakistan is fighting for a piece of land that rightfully belongs to her.
If Pakistanis never live in peace, why did they peacefully handover the part of Kashmir which rightfully belonged to China, to China. It is the Indians who never live in peace. You have quarrels with China, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri-Lanka, Nepal...Well, almost each of your neighbour is ........ed with you.
>> You even fight among your own religion.. The sunis and sheas..
1. See who's talking...(c Gujarat reviews)....Little quarrels have broken out in every religion. Christians have their versions of christianity and sometimes they have fights, because they don't believe the other version of their own religion.
2. I'm seeing that you're being ........ed off...changing the topic...the topic is "THE KASHMIR ISSUE";where did the fight b/w religion(s) come in ?
>> furrukhsana and you seem to be the same person with different ID
ha ha haare you really being ........ed or what !
For your surity, i request the MODERATORS of this group to openly put the IPs of me and furukhsana on this page. So, that you can be sure that we're different people. You Indians never accept the truth...do ya ?
whats the matter vaasant, guess you are out of questions & more than that it looks you are out of answers.
nnow that you seem to be running away from the main topic let me bring you back & tell you the real thing
your govt. say that there are terrorists crossing LoC. on the other they have posted some 0.6 million soldiers on the border & along the LoC and not to mention all those mines spread all over the border & the LoC. WHAT KIND OF ARMY DO YOU HAVE THAT IS INSPITE OF SO MANY TROOPS & MINES & WEAPONS is unable to sstop the so called terrorist from crossing LoC or the border. if you still insist that you have a good army then you must accept that the is NO crossing.
and i guess i will have to make you remember that there is security ccounccil's ressolution whicch ssssays that kashmiris must be allowed to cross the LoC.
the fact is just like you are trying to change the topic, your govt. is trying to divert the attention of the world from its internal situation and riots in its state of Gujrat, by building up tensions on the border with Pakistan and shelling barbarically on innocent civilians across LoC & the working boumdry.
accecpt the reality baby. and the answer to your q that who will WIN is that just like in the past PAKISTAN won, so will he win now & just like in the past india lost ground like in 1948(Azad Kashmir),1965 & 1999(Kargil) so he will now, and just like india went begging for third party help like in 1948 for UN, 1965 for USSR and in 1999 for USA, so will he beg again.
Boy thas not what the world thinks and the people here think.. read the previous posts.. DOnt you remmeber how you lost the kargil war.. And dont you remember the formation of Bangladesh.. Your country was almost split into two.. hahahaha cannot stop laughing... And about crossing the LOC.. the line of controll is not a few hundred KM border.... Well then why are you not able to stop the people crossing from Afganistan.. And dont remind me of how you begged China.. Atleast india and Rusia are have many jont defence projects.. And now india and US is think of co-operating with the misile defence project.... But no one care for you execpt when they require your land to do their fighting.. And not to talk about your misile tests.. All south koreans and Chineese misiles painted with indegenous pakistani green paint.. We have our indegenous Agni, and Arjun tanks and so on. Even your rifies seems to be bought from the koreans... Well who is changing the topic.. it is you...
Dont forget how in 1971 war India had more than 200,000 POW's(Prisionar of wars).. Special camps were built to acomodate them... Well how many POW's did you take 10, 20 or 30....... Well we released them on the basis of mercy and humanity. WHich you guys dont know the meaning of.... And dont forget how Musharaf is begging for a meeting with Indian leadership.. And see how isolated China is to this isue.. it is not even supporting you.. But on the other hand the worlds No 1 country the US is supporting us now.. Well they will give you some bones as long as you allow their soldiers on your soil. So keep it up.. get some more dog bones which you direly need...... And in the KArgil war did you see how your side did not even take away the dead bodies of your soldiers.. Such a pity your soldiers worked so hard to try to win and that is the respect you give them.. We were the ones who gave them a decent burial... It looks like you guys dont even have land for burial....... Well you are all nothing but chinees chamchas........ All your leaders got from you is either death or exile.... Think poor Mush also has the same destiny.....
Well USA is a great country with great power.. and no one speaks bad about her... Well dont you guys see how you agreed when USA said to you.. Join us or you are oue enemy.. Pakistan had to just agree................. And USA has all the right to remove terrorists.. See how your Freedom Fighters and Taliban you liked so much in afganistan is being removed by them... Well you seem to be more ........ed that USA is great and is supporting India and that you lost more wars and you are all being screwed by other countries now.. nd even when britai said Pakistan has to stop terrorism you guys got ........ed.....
Last edited by vasanth; 06-03-2002 at 11:10 AM.
i see, you are going back to Oliver Cromwell's days (when Catholic countries persecuted Protestants, and Protestant countries persecuted catholics) to justify the IRA murdering men, women and children totally indiscriminantly in the recent past (and future probably).Originally posted by salvelinus
Well, there are hawaiians that feel that way. The US basically just took over Hawaii about a hundred or so years ago. The Hawaiian queen at the time even addressed the US Congress begging them not to do so.
I'll admit that the British are doing much better in N Ireland than they used to, but then they used to be pretty bad. The Catholics there were a pretty oppressed minority, albeit a very large minority.
Go back farther, and the British were even worse. The only reason there's more than a handful of Protestants/British in any part of Ireland is because England conquered, pillaged, and set up a preferential regime there.
I'm not getting into Cromwell, et al, but the system set up starting then was brutal towards 95% of the existing population, and continued that way till fairly recently. That system and the conditions it created is what led to IRA terrorism - not excusing it, but creating it.
That is the same situation as Israel/Palestine; India/Kashmir I don't know if follows the same paradigm.
its a long complicated history, but in the recent past there were civil rights marches in NI in the 1960's since the Catholics felt they were treated as 2nd class citizens. this was partly true, although its religuous intolerance on both sides. both the proddies and catholics tend to treat EACH OTHER badly in Ireland. Protestant minorities in southern ireland were treated badly sometimes too. none of this prejudice came from England, where catholics have had equal rights dating back hundreds of years, and make up about 10% of the population i think. catholics here are not treated any different, indeed its of no particular interest if your a protestant or catholic. nobody would even think to ask.
so we have a local Protestant NI government that discriminated against catholics up to the 60's 70's(but nowhere NEAR as bad as the USA did its black population at this time). this is against the wishes of the rest of the UK where there is NO religous intolerance. violence starts, British troops try to keep order, IRA murders viciously and indiscriminantly, including murder of random women and childred on the mainland, and killing one of our royal family, plots to kill others.. they don't want an end to religous intolerance in NI, but want a Catholic dominated NI, part of Eire, not UK. British troops initially welcomed by catholics as peacekeepers, but the IRA did not want this at all and shoot at and murder soldiers to cause unpopular crackdowns. incompetance and bad decisions by British play into their hands and slowly but surely the British troops come to be seen as an 'occupying army' by the catholic minority.
unfortunately more than 2/3 of NI population deeply want (violently if need be) to remain part of UK. Loyalist terrorists also murder civilians and also NI police and British troops occasionally.
Britain was mainly a 'piggy in the middle' in all this.
its calming down a bit now, with compromise on both the Protestant and Catholic sides. many former terrorists now want peace.
99% of NI citizens on either side DO NOT support terrorism by either IRA or Loyalists. the terrorists now exist as thugs and gangsters, self-perpetuating organised crime type criminals. IRA currently has links with terrorists all over the world including south america. heavily involved in drugs trafficing and piracy.
and this is all the fault of the British ??
and Israel/Palestine and Kashmir is all the British fault too eh ??
good grief......
religous intolerance is the cause, blaming British is just a weak excuse.
Last edited by stevey; 06-03-2002 at 11:49 AM.
Steve
He has not said that he "WILL" use nuclear weapons in response. He said that he "MIGHT HAVE TO" use nuclear weapons in response. That's not something very new or amazing, it is something very obvious.
いいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいいい
saying that he will use all powers available (nuclear weapons) in response to an attack (no specification of what sort of an attack)...is what he said...and that is something very new...in terms of incompetence. remember - the taliban came from pakistan.
Last edited by seditee; 06-03-2002 at 11:36 AM.
lebios
It's always struck me that people are so bad at looking at things objectively:
People who love meat claim diets rich in meat are good for you which is then disputed by Vegan doctors. Jews in Israel think that the Palestinians are entirely to blame, Palestinians in Israel think that the Jews are entirely to blame.
And here we are with people equally blindly defending their "group" of people.
"he "MIGHT HAVE TO" use nuclear weapons in response"
That would be the STUPIDEST move he could ever make, hopefully Musharaff is not that stupid.
There is NEVER EVER an instance where you "have to" use nuclear weapons. EVEN if Pakistan was being invaded, what exactly do you think nuking India would achieve? They would immediately retailiate and both countries would be completely obliterated along with the loss of MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of innocent lives.
Land, all this over a bloody patch DIRT, a few freaking mountains.
Despite what has been said Pakistan's reluctance to give up Kashmir DOES have a lot to do with water supply.
The answer is so obvious! Referendum.
Last edited by Clyde; 06-03-2002 at 11:55 AM.
>> remember - the taliban came from pakistan.
Yes, they did. But, they weren't produced by Pakistan. They were neither funded nor armed by Pakistan. It was all done by America. America wanted to empower Afghanistan against the Soviet Union, and so it did. After, the destruction of the Soviet Union, America just left the Taliban...
You can compare the taliban with brainless monsters or zombies. They were doing good, untill they were being commanded by America and Pakistan, jointly. But, after America left them, and Pakistan had to leave them (Pakistan had its own problems to worry about you know), they started doing BAD.
So, what does that prove...It was not only Pakistan that was responsible for the happening. It was more of America's fault then it was Pakistan's.
i agree with everything you say Clyde, except you may be over emphasising the water aspect. indian and pakistani people correct me if i'm wrong, but....
there was a largish article in 'the times' last week about water. actually only one of the 4 or 5 important rivers flows thru kashmir.
in addition, pakistan and india signed an agreement (i think 1947,48) to share water fairly, and this agreement has been cast in stone and never broken, not even during the various conflicts. indian and pakistani 'water' officials meet regularly, and did do recently.
it seems to be one instance of sensible co-operation between these countries. the Indians have never used water as a lever. in any case Indian 'water' officials were saying that it isn't possible to affect the flow of water without causing flooding, without building extensive expensive dams, which would take about 10 years.
(but they probably ........ in it at the border)
Last edited by stevey; 06-03-2002 at 12:13 PM.
Steve
>> All south koreans and Chineese misiles painted with indegenous pakistani green paint..
I'm sure you painted them...'coz I didn't know that!
You are just throwing obligations without any proof. On the other hand, I have atleast given some historical facts to justify my opinion. How can you say that India didn't buy her underpants from Russia ? Whats the point ? Say something which you can atleast justify...
>> Atleast india and Rusia are have many jont defence projects..
All the scientific research come from Russia and all the fundings come from India...that's what you mean by joint defence project...ha ha ha
>> But on the other hand the worlds No 1 country the US is supporting us now..
It is not supporting your acts. America has never said that what you are doing is right. It is right that India & America are involved in some joint ventures, now. But what does that prove? America sees India as a huge MARKET for it's products, and that India has got some potential to stand up to China.
America is not a true friend of any country, but itself. Once it had signed CEATO and CENTO with Pakistan (these were defence pacts). When India attacked Pakistan in 1965 and 1971, no help was given to Pakistan. Instead, America even stopped the transition of arms & ammunition to Pakistan. America produced the Taliban to stand against the Soviet Union. When it was destroyed, America left the Taliban too. America is a wise player. She has her cards well set and hidden...
>> .. And dont you remember the formation of Bangladesh.. Your country was almost split into two..
Ok, India the big country, split Pakistan the small country, into two even smaller parts. And you call Pakistan terrorist ? Whos the real terrorist, you can clearly see...
That is just why Pakistan developed her own nuclear and missile program...so that the past cannot be repeated in the future.
welcome back, happy to see you back vasaaant
you given me many pointss to thank you
first of all you talked about pakistan spliting into two and you getting the POWs. so tell how did paakistan got into two. it was your peacceful and merciful country that attacked us in our eastern & western zones.your country was the one who interfered in our internal matter (as you say to us about kashmir)
and tried to split us into too.saying this you haave accepted that india was an attaccker & it did interfered in a state's internal matted. well this is a kind of allegation that you have beenputing on us & now you are accepting it, thank you for accepting at leasst something.
now about afghans crossing border. tell how long its been ssincce the creation of LoC, 50 years at least. whereas the pak-afghan border is only being sealed now,before that it was totally open.also you guys have nearly a million troop deployed in kashmir & along border whereas we only have few.moreover the lenght of pak-afghan border is far greater than the LoC.So if you in 50 years with a comparitively very sshort LoC and far more troops than ours have not been able to stop any crosssing IF ANY,
then how can you sssay a word to us. you must remember that your dear busssh said that their war on terrorism could not be won without us and we also haanded them over all who crossed the border as we are finding about them including Abu Zubaida.
now about that chinese chamchaship & korean & chinese misile stuff. who said that usa is great country & a great power, it seems to me you are doing the chamccha ship. and that, usa wants you in their missile def. prog., thats a joke b/c it you guys who are begging him for a share. my advisse to you is to you is that first you yourself build good misiles inssstead of building those short range agni and asking russia to help you in maaking supersonic misiles like those of which test you just conduccted. now tell me who is doing the painting.
and that arjun tank.well if that tank is so good then why are buying more taanks from russsia. that s b/c they are no more than trash & nothing in front of our AL KHALID TANKS.
the bones you are talking of are being thrown infront of you to get hold of you densely populous market.
have not you heard those who die for their nation live for ever
and our leader like LIAQUAT ALI KHAN & ZIA UL HAQ were killed b/c countries like yours could not see us enjoying a good leadership while you were killing your own leaders like GANDHI
talking of respect for dead soldiers,haa. well when you gave orders for coufins of your dead soldiers in KARGIL & your govt. specially your def. mins went for corruption in that too, what a resspect. by the way the count of those coufins will tell you who won the KARGIL WAR
and the british, ya they will surely favour you, we know that, b/c they favoured you at time of partition and they still do. we will never expect that britisher will talk just b/c they were never just the first place and its due to their MOUNT BATTEN that today this dispute stand in way of peace as a hurdle b/w india & Pakistan
Last edited by furrukhsana; 06-03-2002 at 01:14 PM.
CLYDE
of first of all its not a matter of just some fairy mountains & rivers . Can't you see its the matter of lifes & will of Kashmiris who are being slaughtered every day by indian forces occupying Kashmir. some people here put the blame of deaths of civilians on freedom fighters. Will some one here tell me who was killing these civilians before 1989. the armed struggle in Kashmir started only in 1989 before which indian forces had killed thousands of people. even now if see reports of human rights orgs. you will get to know what is going on there.
you are right the only permenant solution to the dispute is refrendum, i.e asking the people who live in Kashmir what they want.
another thing, you are also right when you say that use of nukes is good for nothing.but tell IF a country is being drowned by its enemy should it do nothing aand let its enemy go away with everything. I told b/c Pakistan does not have as much as conventional weapons as india does, therefore assuring it that we will only sit ducks with our nukes, good for nothing, made for nothing,iss like giving it "LICENCE TO KILL".
Tell if usa finds out that it is nothing in front of russia in terms of cconventional weapons, will it ASSURE Russia that even if it goes down it WILL NOT use it nukes?
