There seems to be a lot of people who don't like Obama. Do you think he'll have the same fate as John F Kennedy?
There seems to be a lot of people who don't like Obama. Do you think he'll have the same fate as John F Kennedy?
To me the victory is just symbolic of the change in America. Politically for me it really does not represent much. From a poltiical standpoint I probably would feel the same if McCain had won. Both candidates ran campaigns that were not completely along their party lines. Obama was more left-center to center and McCain was definitely right-center to center. The distinctions between them were not that great and they both were not the typical conservative or liberal candidates. I was and still am a bit skeptical of both of them and no matter my political preference the next President has his work cut out for him. It will not be easy and it will be a long hard painful recovery.
I was taken by the fact that 22% considered themselves Dems and about 23% considered themselves Repubs. 44% of Americans consider themselves moderates. This tells me that the nation is not as polarized as we have been told. I think Obama won because he moved towards center faster and more publicly than did McCain. McCain had to shake off the Bush mold and just could not separate himself enough from a very unpopular president. I feel that soon the political climate will be ripe enough that a third moderate party may be able to make a significant running. It would be some time before a win but a move towards the center seems to be quite inviting to a great deal of the country.
If Obama moves far left as did the Dems in late 80's and early 90's when they had similar numbers as they do now he will make a grave mistake that will dearly cost the Dems. The Repubs have done exactly what the Dems did in that they have moved so far right as to be irrelevant and out of touch with the American people. I normally agree with some of what I hear on conservative talk radio, however, this morning I heard a great deal of whining and very negative rhetoric that was uncalled for. Funny thing is I heard the same exact type of whining from the Dems when Bush won. Both parties practice the same negative politics and both are at fault for the state of the nation.
In short it's time for a new party that doesn't have the Dems or Repub label or the conservative or liberal label. It is very clear from the numbers that regardless of conservative or liberal the American people will vote for who they believe will bring in change. Whether they are ill-informed or not is a completely different question and I, too, believe that most are. I think people voted for Obama because they think he is that change. Time will tell if he is or if he succumbs to the pressures of Washington and becomes just another run of the mill President.
But while last night was not a political victory for all involved I do believe it was a victory for America as a whole. We proved that we do not care about the color of your skin or your ethnic origins. Obama, to me, proves that while racism and bigotry is not completely absent in American society, America has come a very long way in a very short time. Obama will definitely be a different face for America and I cannot wait until he is greeted face to face by foreign nations for the first time. I hope other nations can truly see that we Americans are not identified by our race, color, religous beliefs, ethnic origins, sexual preferences, etc. We are identified by and united in a common belief that all of mankind is created equal and that all of mankind deserves the same liberties, rights and freedoms.
America is not perfect or without her flaws. But I must say that last night I was quite proud of her. History has been made and I'm glad I was able to experience it. So many generations before me fought hard for equal rights and never lived to see it come to fruition. Hopefully last night those who have passed on and fought so hard and even died for what they believed in were able to look down from above and finally be proud to be called an American. What I saw last night is the America that my grandfather fought for long ago on the shores of Tinian, the America that my uncles fought for in Vietnam, the America that my cousins fought for in Desert Storm, and the America that some of my friends are still fighting for in Iraq.
I'd agree with that. One of the things I can't stand about politics is when people pull the minority card when it isn't valid, and one person that definitely does that is Jessie Jackson. I think the fact that he's so ridiculous makes it harder the people who are REALLY being discriminated against. When Jessie Jackson actually stopped supporting Obama, I'm pretty sure it was because he realized that having a black president would signal the end of an era.Quote:
But while last night was not a political victory for all involved I do believe it was a victory for America as a whole.
I'm not saying there isn't racism - but I'm definitely saying you're right - it changes the way our mind works.
While I agree on what you say Bubba, I just don't believe America fought for itself in Vietnam or does in Iraq. I'm sorry, but this is part of what separates America and Americans perception of the world with the rest of the world. I don't deny the historical importance of the Vietnam War. But I deny the notion America was defending itself or defining itself in the Vietnam War.
In any case, you are absolutely right to be damn proud of your country. And it's not really Obama's victory that defined this moment. That's the cherry on the top. For the past year and right after Hillary stepped down, the whole campaign around Obama proved this much. He didn't have to win last night for America to have once again proven to the world that their democratic values should be an inspiration to the rest of the world. Naturally, had he not win, the most skeptic and critic would see that as a sign of weakness in the American society. I certainly wouldn't.
In fact for the past 6 months more or less sometimes I even wished I was American, so that I could share that pride. A feeling that my own country has been denying me for a couple of decades already.
McCain was to me a good surprise too. For the better part of this year I looked at him just as another republican. A conservative hawk tied to the party machine like a puppet on a string saying the same old tiresome right-wing lines, capitalizing on fear and national pride to win the election. A behavior I despise. But while my perception wasn't entirely unfounded, it was also partially untrue.
Some 5 months ago, a Portuguese political analyst I tend to admire, was commenting on McCain and revealed some interesting facts about this man and his personality I didn't know of. That spurred my interest in knowing more about him and by the end of this election I was admiring him and, like you, I'm pretty sure America would also be well served had he won. However, Palin was another matter. I can only imagine the type of America we would have had McCain won the elections and... bear with me... died, leaving her in office. Good grief!
I'm interesting on things to come too. I can only imagine the type of war that is about to be fought inside the Democratic party for a place in Obama's entourage that will constitute his government. If there is one thing that this man shown to me is that he knows how to surround himself with the right people. So I'm hoping to not see the Clinton clan anywhere near, neither the democratic orthodox like Albright and friends... I'm hoping too he has the good sense to look in the Republican party, particularly McCain. Both men conveyed a certain interest in working together in their speeches last night. I would like to see that.
On a last racial note... you know folks, it kinda ........ed me off seeing Jesse Jackson crying amidst the crowd. I don't know what he was doing. Was it tears of joy? Doubtful considering he's part of the black hardliners that have constantly based their campaigns on black victimization and racial prejudice towards whites and were never supporters of Obama. Maybe tears of remorse. Maybe both. I'm hoping this whole black wing in American society dies with Obama win last night and the realization it's American society, and not the black community that needs to be served.
>> you know folks, it kinda ........ed me off seeing Jesse Jackson crying amidst the crowd. I don't know what he was doing. Was it tears of joy? <<
Absolutely it was tears of joy (and maybe a little relief, too). Many people cried when the moment finally came. Oprah was crying in the crowd. Colin Powell admitted that he and his whole family cried. It wasn't just black folks either. Jon Stewart cried. I cried. My wife cried.
That moment was a huge event for Americans and black Americans in particular. Jesse Jackson was a civil rights leader. He actually fought not so long ago just to give blacks the ability to cast their votes in the election, and to this day he still fights for racial equality in this country. Racial equality has been his life's work, and here he was watching a black family walk up on stage to be introduced to the world as the first family of our country. Heck, I get emotional just typing it out. This is an amazing thing.
Perhaps you consider him a hardliner that bases his "campaigns" on victimization and prejudice towards whites. Personally I don't recall that being the case for Jackson, but perhaps I'm wrong. Whatever his tactics or beliefs, it is obvious that his goal has not been to make African Americans the supreme race, but rather to get them on equal footing. That is still not the case, as it took an extraordinary person to break this seemingly impossible barrier. But we are symbolically at least a heck of a lot closer. Jackson knows that, Oprah knows that. Jon Stewart knows that. That's why we cried.
Jesse Jackson had a long history of devotion to his cause with little to no reward and he's a great man for that... then he got a little older and started to get a little greedy. Now it's hard to criticize his current actions because of all the time he's spent to the cause. That's what I've seen.
That said... Jesse Jackson is a world better than Al Sharpton.
I don't disagree with what you say, and I don't intend to defend Jackson (or criticize him) here. I honestly don't know enough about his current or historical actions to do so. My belief is that the situation is a lot more complex than implied by the last part of Mario's last post. And I do know enough, IMO, to feel pretty confident that those tears were genuine.
My personal feeling is that Jesse Jackson would have supported Obama whether he agreed with most of his views or not. Hopefully, this is unlike most of the Americans that got out to vote for him, today. I think Obama is a smart man who can do good things... I don't agree with him on every turn but I believe he is a man of the people and is willing to keep his ears open to the citizens' voice.
I agree with you SlyMaelstrom. Jesse Jackson was probably crying because he's black. You know what though.. some of those blacks deserve resolve for what they have been put through. There has most definitely been a bias in the past. This is a clean slate, proving we are all equal to those who suffered injustice and most importantly, those who caused that injustice. I've never had to live thinking I might not be accepted because of the color of my skin. Blacks won't have to now either. Hopefully from now on people can look beyond skin color.
>> I believe all Americans who supported Barack Obama should support him for his views and presence and not for the color of his skin. <<
There is a difference between supporting a candidate (e.g. voting for, donating to, campaigning for) and appreciating the significance of a person belonging to a racial minority being elected to the presidency.
I'm sure the emotion was due to a combination of those things, but one doesn't require the other.
Besides, I'm surprised you think those comments should put into question Jackson's support. Has Jackson ever supported a non-Democrat? Just because he's critical doesn't make him a fraud or someone whose support is solely based on race.
In fact, as I said earlier, I think the country's reasons for voting in Obama were not based on the color of his skin, but rather the content of his character. There's no way white America would vote for a black man unless he was (overly) qualified. And while I'm certain there were a lot of blacks who voted for Obama because of his skin color, I don't see that as such a big deal. Polls showed black voters were hesitant to vote for Obama until after he won mostly-white Iowa. And of course blacks vote democrat all the time anyway.
If Colin Powell had run as a Republican, or Condoleezza Rice, then I'm sure you'd see a lot of people voting against their views and based on color. In this case, though, I think those people were already voting Democrat anyway so they didn't have to make that decision.
>> This is a clean slate, proving we are all equal to those who suffered injustice and most importantly, those who caused that injustice. <<
I disagree. This is not a clean slate, and equality is not here. It is merely a huge step in that direction.
Yes, its obvious that its white mans fault that blacks are so under-privileged, because they are so successful in countries where they are the majority like the Sudan, Ethiopia, Congo, etc.
Slavery ended 143 years ago, there are no blacks alive today that were born to children of slaves. Life is tough for everyone, blacks arent anything special and do not deserve special treatment.
If you think they do then I want every person who doesnt have native american ancestry to get off our continent.
BTW, Obama is only 1/8 black, and 3/8 Muslim, so the only way he can claim to be black is if you follow the one drop rule.
"Muslim" is a religion. "Black" is a race. How can you be 3/8 of a religion?
Also, how is the accuracy of his claim to be black relevant to this discussion? It's apparently not relevant to the blacks who voted for him. It doesn't diminish the historic nature of his election. So you mention it because... ?
Finally, it doesn't take much logic to conceive how a people can continue to be oppressed despite the enactment of laws attempting to guarantee equal rights. You realize that 1964 was nearly 100 years after slavery, and yet I doubt you'd say that things were equal in America at that time. So why would the fact that slavery ended 143 years ago mean something different?
The bottom line is that a large portion of African Americans today feel that they do not live on a level playing field. Debating the accuracy of that feeling might be best left to another time, but it won't change the fact that those feelings are a big part of why Obama's election is a big deal.
I doubt that there are many still alive, but are you sure that there are NONE:
Originally Posted by abachler