GDI using microsoft visual studio

This is a discussion on GDI using microsoft visual studio within the Windows Programming forums, part of the Platform Specific Boards category; Oh, so you must know everything before you can use it? How about your computer? Do you know everything, down ...

  1. #16
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    Oh, so you must know everything before you can use it? How about your computer? Do you know everything, down to the atoms and the electrons on how it works? Does it matter?

    "Mom, look! I made my own refrigerator! It's super cool! And it only draws 1000A!"
    "Dear, we already have a refrigerator made by an expert company that draws 1 mA."
    Last edited by Elysia; 03-14-2011 at 10:40 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    Oh, so you must know everything before you can use it? How about your computer? Do you know everything, down to the atoms and the electrons on how it works? Does it matter?
    Actually, yes, I do... and yes, it does.
    My first computer, (so to speak, if it could even be called that), was something I constructed, by soldering together transistors, resistors and capacitors.
    Do you even know what those are ?

    I'm guessing, probably not.

    ...you probably think a computer is something you buy at the store.

  3. #18
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    Interesting.
    So do you know how your stove works? Your refrigerator? Your TV? Do you know how your clothes are made? Do you know how the ingredients for your food are made? Do you know how your house is built?
    If you don't, you can't use them, because that would violate your statement. And if don't know how your house is built, you mustn't live in there, because what if it breaks? How can you fix it?

    Yes, I know what transistors, resistors and capacitors are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    It's one thing to create it. It's another thing entirely to ship it to your customers.
    Been to my website lately?

    Remote Media
    Last edited by CommonTater; 03-14-2011 at 11:13 AM.

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    Unhappy

    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    Interesting.
    So do you know how your stove works? Your refrigerator? Your TV? Do you know how your clothes are made? Do you know how the ingredients for your food are made? Do you know how your house is built?
    If you don't, you can't use them, because that would violate your statement. And if don't know how your house is built, you mustn't live in there, because what if it breaks? How can you fix it?

    Yes, I know what transistors, resistors and capacitors are.
    Hmm...,
    ...yes,
    ...basically,
    ...definitly,
    ...most certainly,
    ...yes, I often kill what I eat,
    ...yes I do.

    If you don't, you can't use them, because that would violate your statement. And if don't know how your house is built, you mustn't live in there, because what if it breaks? How can you fix it?
    I don't understand..., at what point did I say or even indicate that I couldn't possibly use an add-on simply because I didn't know or understand how it worked ?
    Just because I like to know how things work, I deserve to be slammed by you.

    I've read a number of your posts on this forum. They often follow along a similar vein.
    It's clear that you were severly abused as a child.

    It's becoming widely know that the abused often become abusers themselves.
    I'm sorry for your sadness in life.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    It's one thing to create it. It's another thing entirely to ship it to your customers.
    Been to my website lately?

    Remote Media

    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    Interesting.
    I think you're outnumbered on this one...

    So do you know how your stove works?
    Yes.
    Your refrigerator?
    Yes.
    Your TV?
    Yes.
    Do you know how your clothes are made?
    Yes.
    Do you know how the ingredients for your food are made?
    Mostly.
    Do you know how your house is built?
    Yes.
    If you don't, you can't use them, because that would violate your statement. And if don't know how your house is built, you mustn't live in there, because what if it breaks? How can you fix it?
    Round these parts, when something breaks it's me that fixes it.
    If you do not avoid knowledge, it can be very useful.
    Yes, I know what transistors, resistors and capacitors are.
    Made my living off them for more than 30 years.

    FWIW... here's a my first computer....
    OLD-COMPUTERS.COM : The Museum
    bags of chips, sockets, wrapping wire... all lovingly put together by these two hands...

    Worked service on this one...
    OLD-COMPUTERS.COM : The Museum

    I headed the Canadian service team for this one...
    OLD-COMPUTERS.COM : The Museum


    By way of parallel contrasts...

    My uncle was a ham radio operator, got into the hobby at a time when if you wanted to get on the air and talk to other hams, you built your own radios. Not only did these guys know how the technology worked, for the most part they were on the front edge of it. Many important communication advances --eg. modems-- came from the workshops of ham radio operators.

    Now you don't even have to know how to solder. Ham radio operators are, for the most part, people who are using an appliance, with little or no knowledge of how the thing actually works. They couldn't even make a quicky antenna repair and get back on the air, even if their lives depended on it. And ... most disappointingly, most of them just plain don't care.


    The point from the beginning has been that this kind of dumbing down is not helping the craft or the industry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve A. View Post
    I've read a number of your posts on this forum. They often follow along a similar vein.
    It's clear that you were severly abused as a child.

    It's becoming widely know that the abused often become abusers themselves.
    I'm sorry for your sadness in life.
    Steve... this is not how you make or keep your friends.

    Elysia and I disagree on lots of things and I always enjoy the discussions. Whether we're on the same side or not, I'm not going to sit quietly and let you attack her... and especially not from a position of baseless assumption.
    Last edited by CommonTater; 03-14-2011 at 11:22 AM.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve A. View Post
    I've read a number of your posts on this forum. They often follow along a similar vein.
    It's clear that you were severly abused as a child.

    It's becoming widely know that the abused often become abusers themselves.
    I'm sorry for your sadness in life.
    Abused? Wut? There has been no such thing.
    I am who I am, really, and that is all. I haven't been abused, nor am I abusing. I simply go about things in my own way.

    And I doubt all of you know exactly how things work down to the molecule.
    But consider this: in order to fix your computer, do you have to know exactly how they're made, from the transistor level?
    In order to fix something in your house, do you have to know how it's built exactly?

    Most likely not. And that is the point.
    Using GDI is like building your computer from scratch--with transistors and resistors and capacitors. Using some framework is like building your computer using pre-made parts.
    Easier, simpler, faster, and it can still be repaired much more easily than the basic parts.

    Abstract things by creating larger objects glued together of smaller parts. Then use those larger objects to create your foundation.
    Re the dumbing down part: this is a bigger issue than merely people not understanding how things really work at a lower level. I think the thing is that companies hire people for the wrong things. If you need a programmer to work on low-level stuff, then you need to hire such a programmer. They are definitely out there, they are not scarce. Get the right people for the job, so to speak. The knowledgeable ones of the low-level can create high-level for the other programmers to use. That is the ideal model we are trying to work with.
    Last edited by Elysia; 03-14-2011 at 11:28 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  8. #23
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    Hey Tator,

    I originally came to computers from radio.
    A soldering iron was nothing new to me.

    Whether we're on the same side or not, I'm not going to sit quietly and let you attack her... and especially not from a position of baseless assumption.
    From the perspective of an outsider, she sounds like an angry person to me.
    Last edited by Steve A.; 03-14-2011 at 11:36 AM.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    Abused? Wut? There has been no such thing.
    I am who I am, really, and that is all. I haven't been abused, nor am I abusing. I simply go about things in my own way.
    That was grossly inapprpriate.... I hope he's man enough to apologize.

    And I doubt all of you know exactly how things work down to the molecule.
    But consider this: in order to fix your computer, do you have to know exactly how they're made, from the transistor level?
    Y'know there was a time when we used to unsolder the bad parts from circuit boards and replace them... instead of simply throwing them in the trash. Interest extended beyond the superficial and a good electronic diagnostician could command a pretty decent salary.

    In order to fix something in your house, do you have to know how it's built exactly?
    Well, if I'm going to replace the defrost thermostat in my refrigerator, I'd better know how it works...


    Using GDI is like building your computer from scratch--with transistors and resistors and capacitors.
    Exactly. That's the craft... understanding the belly of the beast, as it were.


    Re the dumbing down part: this is a bigger issue than merely people not understanding how things really work at a lower level. I think the thing is that companies hire people for the wrong things. If you need a programmer to work on low-level stuff, then you need to hire such a programmer. They are definitely out there, they are not scarce. Get the right people for the job, so to speak. The knowledgeable ones of the low-level can create high-level for the other programmers to use. That is the ideal model we are trying to work with.
    Sadly, yes it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve A. View Post
    Hey Tator,

    I originally came to computers from radio.
    A soldering iron was nothing new to me.
    Electronics technologist... pro-audio, radiocomms, office automation, robotics, computers... 30 years on the job.

    From the perspective of an outsider, she sounds like an angry person to me.
    It's you that sounds angry my friend.

    Programmers (and computer heads in general) tend to speak very directly amongst themselves. Not rudely ... directly. But we don't go around launching ad-hominem attacks on one another and we certaily don't make up reasons to be angry at one another. IMO... you should apologize.
    Last edited by CommonTater; 03-14-2011 at 11:44 AM.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by CommonTater View Post
    Well, if I'm going to replace the defrost thermostat in my refrigerator, I'd better know how it works...
    But you don't need to know what molecules it consists of and they are put together.

    Sadly, yes it is.
    That is a good thing. It means you can use things without having to understand the inner workings.
    Do you know how the latest microprocessors are made, down to the dust undeniably stuck within? Yet, you use it without knowing exactly everything about it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    But you don't need to know what molecules it consists of and they are put together.
    To diagnose it as faulty, yes, you do need to know how it works.

    That is a good thing. It means you can use things without having to understand the inner workings.
    For Joe Average, who just wants to check his email and maybe play a couple of games, sure it's ok... but we work at a level above that, where a better understanding of the guts makes us more able to make life easier for Joe Average...

    I won't name names, but how often have you sat on this very Forum and wondered how the heck some of these guys intend to program something they don't even know how to operate?
    Be honest... It's crossed your mind, hasn't it?


    Do you know how the latest microprocessors are made, down to the dust undeniably stuck within? Yet, you use it without knowing exactly everything about it?
    I won't claim chip by chip knowledge of modern computers (retirement brings some priveledges) but there was a time....

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by CommonTater View Post
    To diagnose it as faulty, yes, you do need to know how it works.
    Oh, come on, you don't know every little molecule it consists of.

    For Joe Average, who just wants to check his email and maybe play a couple of games, sure it's ok... but we work at a level above that, where a better understanding of the guts makes us more able to make life easier for Joe Average...

    I won't name names, but how often have you sat on this very Forum and wondered how the heck some of these guys intend to program something they don't even know how to operate?
    Be honest... It's crossed your mind, hasn't it?
    Here's the thing:
    Our job as programmers is to put technology at our disposal to work, in order to create a product for the end user.
    If you cannot do that, then you are a failure.
    But GDI is one of many tools. You don't need to be able to use GDI if you can use another tool to create the end product. If you can instead use X, which is easier and gets the work done, then it is acceptable, and you may call yourself a programmer.
    There is no way you are going to end up learning all tools and technology at your disposal. So what do you do? You simply don't use them. You use whatever tools and technology you have learned. By doing so, you become a programmer.
    If you try to use tools you haven't mastered on purpose, then you are a failure as a programmer. If you are trying to learn new tools, then that is fine.

    All this boils down to what I've said before:
    While knowing the absolute basics is good, it also increases bugs, development time and instability.
    Why piece your computer together with resistors, capacitors and transistors when you can use already available tools?
    And when trying to repair a computer, why not switch out faulty parts instead of trying to fix faulty transistors? Likely, it will be more error-prone to do the later. And take longer.

    There is a limit to how low you should go. It's a trade-off.
    If it turns out that in 99.99% of the cases, you don't need to know GDI to fix bugs or create your applications, should you learn it? It's likely a waste of your time.

    Or what if there was a framework that kept 100% of the functionality, yet made it easier for programmers? Same functionality, same efficiency, etc. Would it be worth it to use it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  13. #28
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    Let's revisit this topic, if you please...

    Quote Originally Posted by OP
    Can anyone recommend any good websites or videos to learn GDI?
    Quote Originally Posted by reply by steve
    I don't know any specific websites.
    I too am just learning GDI.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia
    Why do you need to learn GDI?
    Elysia's further responsed were (from the readers perspective) quite antagonistic and not helpful.
    Please go back and re-read the postings.

    The question was not: "what's your opinion on... ?".
    It was specifically asking about learning GDI.

    If I or anyone else wants to learn GDI, isn't that our business ?
    Do we also have to explain ourselves and provide reasons why ?
    Should we expect to be berated for our interests ?


    Angry statement:
    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia
    Oh, so you must know everything before you can use it? How about your computer? Do you know everything, down to the atoms and the electrons on how it works? Does it matter?

    "Mom, look! I made my own refrigerator! It's super cool! And it only draws 1000A!"
    "Dear, we already have a refrigerator made by an expert company that draws 1 mA."

    Quote Originally Posted by Tater
    Whether we're on the same side or not, I'm not going to sit quietly and let you attack her... and especially not from a position of baseless assumption.
    Baseless assumption... or, perception ?


    Quote Originally Posted by Tater
    That was grossly inapprpriate.... I hope he's man enough to apologize.
    ...man enough to apologize. ...???
    Tater, get real!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tater
    Y'know there was a time when we used to unsolder the bad parts from circuit boards and replace them...

    To this day, I keep a workbench with soldering iron handy and an ample supply of circuit boards nearby.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tater
    It's you that sounds angry my friend.
    Angry...?
    Tater, Tater, Tater...,
    I'm just not willing to put up with loads of someones self-righteous B.S.
    Especially when I know it's B.S.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tater
    ...speak very directly amongst themselves. Not rudely ... directly.
    How can anything she has had to say not be perceived as rude ?
    And, most certainly, not as self-righteous.

    Perhaps you been hanging around her too long and have learned to overlook the rudeness.


    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia
    ...why not switch out faulty parts instead of trying to fix faulty transistors?

    You've never done it, have you ?
    You wouldn't know where to even begin, would you ?


    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia
    If it turns out that in 99.99% of the cases, you don't need to know GDI to fix bugs or create your applications, should you learn it? It's likely a waste of your time.

    If it's my time..., what do you care ?

    Thanks Elysia. You're a programming master! How the hell do you know every thing?"
    ...not self-righteous ?
    Give me a break !
    Last edited by Steve A.; 03-14-2011 at 03:20 PM.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve A. View Post
    Elysia's further responsed were (from the readers perspective) quite antagonistic and not helpful.
    Please go back and re-read the postings.

    The question was not: "what's your opinion on... ?".
    It was specifically asking about learning GDI.

    If I or anyone else wants to learn GDI, isn't that our business ?
    Do we also have to explain ourselves and provide reasons why ?
    Should we expect to be berated for our interests ?
    Did I say you must not learn GDI? I did not.
    Did I say no one must help you? I did not.
    Do I know of any good resources for GDI? I do not.
    Does that prevent others from giving you that information? It does not.
    Anyone could at any time have given you some resources on that.
    I have not prevented that in any way or form, nor have I tried to do so.

    Baseless assumption... or, perception ?
    Perception, perhaps?

    ...man enough to apologize. ...???
    Tater, get real!
    Have I been rude to you? I have not.
    Have you been rude to me? You have.
    On that basis, I should think that an apology is not so far-fetched.

    Angry...?
    Tater, Tater, Tater...,
    I'm just not willing to put up with loads of someones self-righteous B.S.
    Especially when I know it's B.S.
    Do you know me? You do not.
    Are you jumping to conclusions? You certainly are.
    This is not some made up ideas of reality. This is code we live by. Whether you like it or not is irrelevant. But it is still truth and reality.

    How can anything she has had to say not be perceived as rude ?
    And, most certainly, not as self-righteous.

    Perhaps you been hanging around her too long and have learned to overlook the rudeness.
    Or perhaps you've not been around long enough.

    If it's my time..., what do you care ?
    I don't, and I'm not stopping you. I never said I cared, nor said I was stopping you.
    I was responding to CommonTater about a discussion.

    ...not self-righteous ?
    Give me a break !
    I didn't put it there because it's a made-up quote. It's actually something people have told me. If you'd search, you'd find out. It has been mentioned a number of times, actually, along with some other things. But I cannot fit all into my signature.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  15. #30
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    Elysia,
    I think we're looking at two things here... A generational difference and perhaps a gender one as well.

    I grew up in a time when you would buy a television set and every so often you would have to repair it. Most of the guys in my family were quite at home pulling out the tubes and changing out the bad ones. My father and my Uncle both built their own television kits and later I built my own as well. (Google: HeathKit). We knew how stuff worked and it was a point of pride that we could adjust it or fix it if it went south.

    Today's generation has never been given any reason to think beyond the skin of most modern equipment. To them a monitor "just lights up", they neither know nor care about flourescent panels, liquid crystals or transistor matrices. It's beyond them and they don't care to learn...

    For a couple of reasons, actually: 1) Extreme miniaturization while making whole new things possible also totally destroyed the service industry. Nobody can replace parts the size of fly poop so suddenly everything is disposable. 2) If one has only very limited exposure to the workings of the appliances they use, they very soon become complacent and lose curiosity about what's actually going on.

    This has become the new mindset... "I have this thing to play music. Why would I care how it does it?" and "If it stops working I'll just toss it out and get a new one."... there is no reason to understand something you couldn't fix in the first place...

    The second big difference (despite how this may sound) could well be gender related. By and large women tend to be much more at ease using stuff they don't understand than guys are. Partly because society has (wrongly) drilled it into them that they can't understand and partly because women are crafty critters who know they can usually get a man to help them when needed. So... why worry about it if you have a built in mechanic sipping beer on the lazy boy in your livingroom...

    But no matter the underpinnings the new attitudes are real and they are here to stay, at least for the foreseeable future. I'm just hoping that we don't get ourselves so dumbed down that we can't maintain the machines we rely upon ... (scifi references abound...)

    Why not just buy that ham radio set, get a call sign and use it? Ask the victims of hurricane Katrina who were largely guided and re-united by a group of radio amaturs who did hasty repairs and set up a comm-net before anyone else even got there.

    Why not just buy that care and drive it? Ask the woman who froze to death in nothern Alberta last year because she didn't know how to change a tire.

    and on and on....

    As programmers we might say "There are no programming emergencies"... well not until the boss is counting on you to get the police dispatch network back up and working after a major catastrophy.

    There will always have to be people who know how to do these things starting from putting new connectors on the cables and ending up reinstalling software... We can't all be appliance users. It puts us too much at the mercy of the technology.

    So I think we're kinda back where we started on this...
    It really is a difference of perspectives...

    Agree to disagree? Until next time?
    Last edited by CommonTater; 03-14-2011 at 01:39 PM.

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