Do I need more RAM ?

This is a discussion on Do I need more RAM ? within the Tech Board forums, part of the Community Boards category; Originally Posted by Wraithan I want one of those so bad, but the price keeps me out of that market ...

  1. #31
    Devil's Advocate SlyMaelstrom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wraithan View Post
    I want one of those so bad, but the price keeps me out of that market =(
    Indeed... $3,500 is a nice down payment on a pretty good car... which, by the way, I could also use.
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  2. #32
    Captain Crash brewbuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CornedBee View Post
    You mean, by swapping out long-unused stuff, you can avoid a delay when swapping is finally necessary?
    Yes, the delay you are avoiding is the delay in acquiring page frames for some process which suddenly needs more memory. It doesn't mean that 128 megabytes must always remain free, just that old stuff starts swapping out before you hit a point where you might actually have to wait for a page frame.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    Yeah, unfortunately, Windows is a complex beast and I certainly don't understand fully how it works.
    Really, think of RAM like your desk and your harddrive like your desk drawers and you as the processor. When your desk is, say, 80% full of clutter... it would be more efficient to put the older items that you know you haven't used a long while into the drawers, now in anticipation of more clutter, than it would be to put the stuff away when you actually need to clean up the clutter to add more items to the desk.
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    Same, I have a system similar to yours, but no car =( Tax return is going to be a downpayment on a nice car.

  5. #35
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    Yeah, I understand the reasoning behind why Windows does what it does. I don't understand everything, that's all. But then again, who does, save for the devs of Windows itself?
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  6. #36
    pwns nooblars
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    Windows will also page when an app hasn't been used in a long time but there is still memory free, I know I have witnessed that on this computer, with 3GB of RAM I shouldn't be paging unless I am gaming or doing other resource intensive task.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    Yeah, I understand the reasoning behind why Windows does what it does. I don't understand everything, that's all. But then again, who does, save for the devs of Windows itself?
    Paging strategies are well known and well solved problems. I doubt Windows does anything truly unexpected as far as swapping.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wraithan View Post
    Windows will also page when an app hasn't been used in a long time but there is still memory free, I know I have witnessed that on this computer, with 3GB of RAM I shouldn't be paging unless I am gaming or doing other resource intensive task.
    Yes, but I do believe they have a ratio of Free RAM to Application Idle Time that the consult with when deciding whether to swap out an idle application. For instance, if you have 2GB of free RAM at any given time, it may not swap out a file until it has been idle, for say, 24 hours or so. I dunno... the calibration of the system might suck, but I'm sure they're considering all of the elements.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by brewbuck View Post
    Paging strategies are well known and well solved problems. I doubt Windows does anything truly unexpected as far as swapping.
    Well, unfortunately, this is one paging situation I don't understand:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraithan View Post
    Windows will also page when an app hasn't been used in a long time but there is still memory free, I know I have witnessed that on this computer, with 3GB of RAM I shouldn't be paging unless I am gaming or doing other resource intensive task.
    Having 3 GB of ram and never using it all, it shouldn't swap anything out at all!
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  10. #40
    Captain Crash brewbuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    Having 3 GB of ram and never using it all, it shouldn't swap anything out at all!
    Why not? Just because a page gets paged out doesn't mean it is removed from RAM.

    Imagine some program A has allocated 16 megabytes, and has gone to sleep, and it has been asleep for a while. The OS can swap all its pages to disk but keep them in RAM as well (so it's not really swapping, but making a copy). Now imagine that extreme memory pressure is suddenly placed on the system. It can immediately throw the pages out of program A's memory without paging them to disk, because they already got paged out a long time ago.

    On the other hand, if program A suddenly wakes up again, its pages are all still in RAM and no swapping needs to happen. The OS just clears the swap pages from the swap cache and goes about its business.

    Either way, the net effect is a win.

    If there is available swap space, and no IO pressure, the system should ALWAYS be swapping out. Why wait until things start slowing down?

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlyMaelstrom View Post
    the calibration of the system might suck, but I'm sure they're considering all of the elements.
    It will still always feel a little random though. I didn't know Windows did this. I've seen it happen before too. But didn't give up much thought until just now.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by brewbuck View Post
    If there is available swap space, and no IO pressure, the system should ALWAYS be swapping out. Why wait until things start slowing down?
    yup. windows does this all the time.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  13. #43
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brewbuck View Post
    Why not? Just because a page gets paged out doesn't mean it is removed from RAM.
    The point is that it tosses stuff out of RAM even though there's no pressure. Typically running a game can force such a situation, even though the game might not use all RAM available.
    Paging is fine, but when it start to drop stuff out of ram for no reason, then things are starting to go wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  14. #44
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    He just explained you why they aren't.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  15. #45
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    They are at times for no apparent reason.
    Why else would be so sluggish and slow at times?
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

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