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Must install Linux

This is a discussion on Must install Linux within the Tech Board forums, part of the Community Boards category; Originally Posted by cfanatic But the inverse is that you'd have to know exactly what package you need to install, ...

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by cfanatic View Post
    But the inverse is that you'd have to know exactly what package you need to install, and manually installing many packages that are default in the desktop version is time consuming.
    but if you don't like any of the desktops that come with the standard ubuntu distributions (which is my situation), then installing the one of your choice requires this anyway. my preference is to start with a cleaner slate. I don't want the any of other desktops hanging around taking up space.
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  2. #32
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Elkvis: Check Arch, Arch or Gentoo. That's precisely what they are there for. Although admittedly you may be put off by their rolling update model.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirPrattlepod View Post
    Seriously? Gnome 3 is, to put it bluntly as I am inclined to do, crap.
    Indeed. It's not everyday that I hear praise for Gnome 3. That thing in fact made me lose some faith in the Open Source model; you know, a simple few trying to push a desktop no one really asked for and no one said they wanted. Gnome 3 has been contentious even among its contributors and long standing Linux figures.

    Quote Originally Posted by MutantJohn View Post
    The only real way to choose a Linux distro though is to ask yourself, and I mean really ask yourself, does it support Gnome 3?
    It is not really a good reason to choose Arch. Better go with those pre-made distros then. Less hassle. I'm an Arch fan for the past 5 years and the reason I chose it was it's the best way to learn Linux, to plunge right into the beast and get dirty. God bless virtual machine images too! Got my Linux "doctorate" in about an year, thanks to both Arch barebones approach to Linux and VMWare image rollovers.

    As for my DE, I don't use it. I'm a window manager kind of guy and use i3 tiling wm. I have no use for full blown DE in Linux. Were I to choose though, I'd probably go with a highly customized OpenBox installation or maybe a modular DE like Xfce. Just say no to Gnome and KDE.
    Last edited by Mario F.; 10-14-2013 at 12:10 PM.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  3. #33
    Registered User manasij7479's Avatar
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    KDE is pretty good nowadays, though.
    (kwin supports tiling too..btw)

    Doesn't get in my way and looks good when configured appropriately...I couldn't want anything more from my User Interface.
    Manasij Mukherjee | gcc-4.8.2 @Arch Linux
    Slow and Steady wins the race... if and only if :
    1.None of the other participants are fast and steady.
    2.The fast and unsteady suddenly falls asleep while running !



  4. #34
    Registered User MutantJohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    Indeed. It's not everyday that I hear praise for Gnome 3. That thing in fact made me lose some faith in the Open Source model; you know, a simple few trying to push a desktop no one really asked for and no one said they wanted. Gnome 3 has been contentious even among its contributors and long standing Linux figures.
    Really? Do people really not like Gnome 3 that much? That's... That's so weird.

    Alright, I must do my typical troll gambit.

    First off, what's your GPU? If it's too weak, that might be why you don't like Gnome 3.

    Second, how old are you? I feel like old people don't like newer adaptations of Linux which I'm not holding against you. I'm just saying that I'm part of the future and it's glorious.

    I feel like most Linux developers were faced with a crossroads. They keep doing what they do and keep the loyalty of their previous users or they could shake things up and copy modern OS design (Windows and OS X) and I love what they did with it so much more. I think Unity is a direct Windows 7 rip-off and I love it. Gnome 3 feels like it's trying to be OS X but it's superior, imo.

    Then again, I've met a couple of people my age who just don't like Gnome 3 and all I can think is, why would you possibly like anything that looks so much older? It looks like an OS from 1985 while Gnome 3 looks like it came from this decade or at least from 2008 and on.

    But out of curiosity, what are your specific gripes with it? My specific praises for it are, Gnome has a lot of neat apps and pushing the super key allows me to search programs and files pretty easily and quickly with a visual display which is pretty nice. It doesn't find everything but I don't expect it too.

  5. #35
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MutantJohn View Post
    Second, how old are you? I feel like old people don't like newer adaptations of Linux which I'm not holding against you. I'm just saying that I'm part of the future and it's glorious.
    Honestly, I laughed so loud my wife asked me what was it about. It was your straw man. It's comical.

    Quote Originally Posted by MutantJohn View Post
    But out of curiosity, what are your specific gripes with it? My specific praises for it are, Gnome has a lot of neat apps and pushing the super key allows me to search programs and files pretty easily and quickly with a visual display which is pretty nice. It doesn't find everything but I don't expect it too.
    You want to enter into that kind of debate? I mean, what's the use? Right now I'm looking at your reason to like Gnome 3 and wondering why is that you prefer it over Gnome 2, where you can search programs and files pretty easily and get a visual display. It also has this tendency to find everything you search for which is oddly enough an improvement over the newer version.

    Conversely I may tell you what I don't like about Gnome 3 and you won't probably understand. Because at my old age, I'm not a part of the future. I AM the future, son.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  6. #36
    Registered User MutantJohn's Avatar
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    Actually, if you were at an old age, you'd currently be the present.

    So if there's not much discernible difference between Gnome 2 and 3, then why not like 3? Did your plug-ins break or something? I'm sad that some of mine broke when 3.10 came out but such is life.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by MutantJohn
    why would you possibly like anything that looks so much older? It looks like an OS from 1985 while Gnome 3 looks like it came from this decade or at least from 2008 and on.
    Disclaimer: I don't really use Gnome 3, so I'm speaking generally about "shiny new stuff"

    If I put a shiny, futuristic body on this car
    Name:  flintstone-car.jpg
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    It would not magically become a better car (in terms of getting me from A to B) than this one
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    Many people prefer function over form. I couldn't give two craps about transparent backgrounds or silly things like making my list of programs/windows appear as though they're being viewed through a magnifying glass. None of that makes my life easier as a user, none of it makes me more productive. And since I spend most of my computing hours working, and not mousing over my window list or uselessly switching virtual desktops, productivity is an important factor. Actually, transparent window backgrounds can reduce productivity (yes, I know this is not a Gnome 3 specific feature, or even very new). Unless you have a very simple wallpaper/background, letters and smaller parts of images may be hard to discern, especially if you have windows stacked. The magnifying glass crap? Displaying my virtual desktops on the sides of a cube that I can rotate around? It's great at showing that modern GPUs have spare cycles to burn, but it doesn't help me use my computer better. And why would I want my laptop/desktop to list my applications the same way that my phone/tablet does? Why, with my 27" widescreen monitor, should I only see 20 or so applications at once? Tiling icons 4x5 is fine on a 4" screen, but is dumb on a big monitor, when the icons end up being 2" across. It leaves me able to see a few things too well, and the rest of the stuff not at all, which just lowers my productivity. In fact, all I see, when I look at those shiny new features is the time the developers spent not fixing existing bugs, not improving speed or reliability, and not working on things that will actually increase my productivity. I'm sure some of this is configurable, but meh. I'd rather have functional and productive out of the box.

    Now, if I could have a UI that made me as productive (or more so) than my current UI and was more aesthetically pleasing, then yes, I would probably adopt it. Sometimes this happens.

    Note, however, that I don't really use a GUI. I mean, I do, but it's just because I need to use a web browser, since I use a lot of web-based apps at work and have to look stuff up on the web (and contribute to C Board). Lynx just doesn't cut it. Pretty much all of my actual programming work is done using a terminal program, with Vim as my editor. The fact that I can do 99% of my job without my fingers leaving the keyboard is a huge boost to productivity.

    EDIT: I'm not saying I'm right, just that it depends on what you want from your UI
    Last edited by anduril462; 10-14-2013 at 05:02 PM. Reason: Fixed incomplete sentence
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  8. #38
    Master Apprentice phantomotap's Avatar
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    Second, how old are you? I feel like old people don't like newer adaptations of Linux which I'm not holding against you. I'm just saying that I'm part of the future and it's glorious.
    *hikes up golf pants*

    O_o

    Well, I hate to burst your bubble youngster, but the UI elements, layout, and "grid of tasks" (grid of icons) you associate with "the future" have been around 20 years.

    No, the "Windows 7", "Windows 8", "Unity", and "Mac OS X" native desktop environments didn't bring the future; they returned us to the past which didn't really work for anyone the first time around.

    That's why a lot of us who were around then absolutely detest "the future": we remember how much it sucked the first time these ideas played out. (Granted, it sucking so much the first time around is also the same reason many of us chuckle to ourselves every time 3D, virtual reality, and movement capture are mentioned.)

    *adjusts golf pants*

    That "grid of tasks" thing people love so much? The one with "minimalist" user interface? The types of desktop environments that *still* spawn a new overlapped, linearly tiled, or worse fixed maximum, window when a new task is started? I don't really despise those methods, but after using more productive layout managers those methods seem a pathetic waste. Do yourself a favor: try a classic "alignment daemon" type desktop environment, 50+ year old ideas, for a few days.

    Yeah, these ideas are even older than the ones you like, and I'm not guaranteeing you'll like the flavor, but you strongly imply that those who hate this "the future" of yours is simply to old to appreciate modern ideas so put your money where your mouth is, so to speak, and try out the "ancient" ideas.

    [Edit]
    Just in case, do you want to know why guys like me Mario F. like the "alignment daemon" type desktop environment? Well, when I start my computer the first thing I do is load "Thunderbird"/"Firefox". The "alignment daemon" type desktop environment will, for lack of a better word, "splice" the window into the setup according to user requirements as new tasks are loaded. So, in other words, we start a task and the task is never hidden nor window need be managed in any way.

    Elaborating, I load "Thunderbird" so trigger the layout manager to splice at 100 (maximizes) to desktop one. I then load "Firefox" getting a 50/50 splice. I then load my IDE getting two 50/50 vertical stripes with the right side 50/50 horizontal stripes (50/25/25). When I'm done reading email I kill "Thunderbird" getting just the IDE and "Firefox" at 50/50.

    The layout engine always showing you as much as possible, according to your rules, without any user intervention is a freaking amazing way to use a computer.
    [/Edit]

    [Edit]
    Oh, yeah, they do have alternative window managers, whatever, for "GNOME" and "KDE" that will do this, but really, why pay for "Gnome" if you don't want "Unity" and friends?
    [/Edit]

    Soma
    “Often out of periods of losing come the greatest strivings toward a new winning streak.” -- Fred Rogers
    “Salem Was Wrong!” -- Pedant Necromancer

  9. #39
    Registered User MutantJohn's Avatar
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    Whoa, 20 years ago I was 3. And you were old enough to be using these DEs and have opinions about them. How old are you guys? If you did the math, I'm 23. Are you guys like me from 20 years ago? So that's 43+?

    @ anduril : Don't blame your DE for your lack of productivity but I guess it could slow you down but I don't see how it'd be anything but a non-trivial amount compared to using something like gedit or Code::Blocks.

    @ phantom : I missed you. I thought you left and I'm happy to see you're still here. You don't seem to post as much in the C/C++ forums where I'm used to seeing you.

    So, do alignment daemons have workspaces? I've found more often than not that workspaces help me keep everything organized and allow me to fully use my computer. For example, I'll have Clementine (music player) open in one, Heroes of Newerth (full screen videogame) in a different one, Gedit and terminals open in another and my primary workspace has Chromium, Psensor and various terminals. I'll have other blank workspaces where I can put pdf's that I want to view and stuff like that. I like having empty ones for overflow.

    Also, do alignment daemons allow for background pictures? I love looking at them, actually. I've found this really pretty picture of a stellar cluster of blue stars with lots of dust to diffuse the light.

    Doing a google image search, I don't think a lot of the functionality I'm used to is available. But I can have a background image which is nice but it makes text on the terminal hard to read.

    And I'm not worried about productivity because tbh, I spend most of my time coding by writing with a pen and paper in a notebook which is the ultimate old school technology. I did read a coding interview book that mentioned I should get used to presenting code without a computer and I giggled with delight because that's literally how I code. Nothing makes me happier than writing code and the first time I compile it, it does so perfectly. Granted, it starts to fall apart pretty quickly but still, there are those few precious moments...

    Ironically enough, if I really, really wanted to, I could just make terminator fullscreen and use its built-in tiling feature to emulate the tiled window manager when coding but I very rarely need more than one terminal for coding. Mostly when I'm testing small things that I want to integrate into larger code.

    I think we have different opinions because we use our computers for different things. I don't have just a work computer. It's also my play computer as well. I use it for everything and tiled window managers seem more geared for just pure work.

  10. #40
    Master Apprentice phantomotap's Avatar
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    I missed you. I thought you left and I'm happy to see you're still here. You don't seem to post as much in the C/C++ forums where I'm used to seeing you.
    ^_^

    Thanks.

    I've just been busy with web development stuff. I'm fine with Python, but the Javascript/HTML/CSS side makes me ill and cranky.

    So, do alignment daemons have workspaces?
    Also, do alignment daemons allow for background pictures?
    The automatic management of window size and position according to such rules is part of the layout engine; window managers of the "alignment daemon" type aren't necessarily different from other window managers beyond what features the layout engine offers. The ones I've tried, too many to list, all supported some form of background, slits, panels, widgets, and workspaces.

    Soma
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  11. #41
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    I'm 44. Anyways, it will depend on what tiling wm you chose. But most (including i3) have support for all those things you mention, also multi-monitor support... which under a tiling wm puts you in a wole new level of productivity and usability.

    Yes, a tiling wm is above all a productivity environment. And that's pretty much my only use for Linux. But naturally you can run anything in a tiling wm that you can on your normal desktop environment. Including games and video. There's nothing stopping you, except of course getting used to a tiling environment. It's not for everyone.

    Don't blame your DE for your lack of productivity
    Oh, but I do. Especially in the presence of such anomalies as Windows 8 or Gnome 3 along with their discoverability issues. The problem is not about getting used to it or not. Even liking it or not isn't really what puts off most people about these user interfaces. We use our computers and get accustomed to their workflows. When we are forced (note we are forced, we don't actually chose to) into a radically different workflow, you'll find many people becoming resistant and annoyed. Especially when the so-called innovative design simply doesn't answer our more important need of just getting work done. This has nothing about being resistant to change. It's about breaking someone's productivity for no concrete reason except the desire to make something different. Especially when we -- who have been around long enough to have seen it all -- know how irrelevant these changes really are to someone's productivity. That is, your Gnome 3 experience isn't really more productive than someone else's Gnome 2 experience. The idea there is a productivity and usability gain between Windows 7 and 8 or Gnome 2 and 3 is just one big ruse.

    Gnome 3 and Windows 8 epitomize all that is wrong with modern user DE philosophies(?). The idea that a DE must stand in the way between a user and their applications, as opposed to stand back and merely serve them, is exactly what drives a lot of people towards windows managers (including tiling) and modular desktop environments, where they can set their more minimalist environments without that necessarily removing the eye candy many like to keep in their monitors. A tiling wm is in fact one of the best examples of a backstage user interface. And for that reason, why you -- without prior knowledge of them -- immediately recognized them for what they are; veritable productivity environments.

    It is also worth mentioning that Gnome 3 open controversy isn't paying it any service. When you accumulate one of the largest Linux group of followers only to later have it split into aye sayers and nay sayers, you essentially fragmented your community. Gnome doesn't enjoy today the popularity of other times. This is potentially a bad thing, considering the Gnome FOSS has a complex and large codebase that requires a large group of dedicated contributors in addition to the regular developers. In any case, it certainly has already lost a whole lot of its charm and the general consensus it gathered around the Linux community.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  12. #42
    Registered User MutantJohn's Avatar
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    In my defense, I never claimed that Gnome 3 made me more productive than Gnome 2 or any other DE for that matter because I started off with Unity. Also, the Tweak tool helps A LOT.

    I was going to make a post about how any programmer worth his salt should be able to be productive under any environment but there is an acclimation period. I visited my girlfriend and I was using her family's computer to take an interview test (which owned me in the face because I didn't know about placement new()) and having to switch from using Gedit in Gnome 3 on Arch to Code::Blocks on Windows 8 was kind of jarring but I got over it in like 15 minutes. Visual Basic 2012 is an abomination that needs to be purged with fire.

    People have their comfort zones. You and phantom are right. I was never around for the old days so I'm seeing things for the first time. I think I have maybe been programming in total for like one full year which I guess is small, compared to your repertoire of experience. But I never claimed Gnome 3 made me more productive. My claim is that your productivity is a reflection of you. Don't blame your DE 'cause your code sucks. Don't thank your DE if your code rocks. You can love your DE but your code should be all yours, hence why I love doing all my code on paper first because I can abstract and visualize everything and how it should work before I even touch a keyboard. It also allows me to structure my code much more logically and create a better flow but judging by some errors I'm getting in this project I'm working on, my flow ain't perfect.

    I like these links :Controversy over GNOME 3 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Fedora 15: More than just a pretty interface • The Register

    The second one talks about Fedora and Gnome 3 and mentions that Gnome 3 isn't traditional and shakes things up. You mentioned this too but I love that about it. It's so.. so clean. Sleak. Refined. And the article is right, if your rig is good enough, Gnome 3 is snappy. I have the virtue that I built a gaming rig 2+ years ago and it's still in pretty good shape. Gaming rigs are pretty sweet, especially when used for development. Gnome 3 takes good advantage of my parts and doesn't exactly overly tax them. Plus, I assume it makes my GPU happy

    But I like battling my computer. That's why I think I love Linux so much. You mention a subdued DE instead of having to go through it. That if I want to do anything, I must use Gnome 3's tools. If I was bothered by things like these, I would've never chosen Arch or Linux in general.

    I feel like no matter which distro you choose, you're going to have to fight it. That's kind of the con with Linux and that's why Windows is so popular because it aims to avoid that at all costs. But that's what makes Linux great. You beat it into submission and it's truly yours. It also teaches newbs like me quite a bit of stuff and it actually got me into programming and inspired me to take my first CS class and then the next one after that. I kind of graduated after that but I do regret taking solid state physics over advanced programming at my school mostly because the solid state professor forced us to do the homework in Python which is literally THE worst thing to have happened to computers since... probably since ever. A

    I don't like clutter, Gnome 3 helps me keep things separated and free looking which is what I prefer. You may prefer seeing everything at once and that is fine. There is but only one thing that matters, we both agree Linux is awesome. I love making plugs for Gnome 3 because I guess we're in the minority and I love trolling.

    I'm glad we had this conversation. It's helped open my eyes up to the education I never received so thank you for the street lessons.

  13. #43
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MutantJohn View Post
    I was going to make a post about how any programmer worth his salt should be able to be productive under any environment but there is an acclimation period.
    Yeah, right. Take away a programmer his/her keyboard and replace it with an onboard keyboard on the screen. See how effective he/she then becomes
    Each have their own preference, and it is only when we achieve this preference that we become as productive as possible.

    As for UIs in Linux... well, all I can say is that it seems pretty, but productiveness is absolutely 0. It's absolutely amazing how even the most basic features of Windows do not appear in Linux UIs. Then there's the whole mindset that everything should be done via commandline and changing files. This leads to settings lacking in UIs, and so on. These two combines is the reason why I hate Linux and why, for the moment, I shall never switch from Windows 7 unless someone rips it from my cold, lifeless hands.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  14. #44
    Registered User manasij7479's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    It's absolutely amazing how even the most basic features of Windows do not appear in Linux UIs.
    Can you mention some?
    Manasij Mukherjee | gcc-4.8.2 @Arch Linux
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    2.The fast and unsteady suddenly falls asleep while running !



  15. #45
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manasij7479 View Post
    Can you mention some?
    It really varies from distro to distro.
    I haven't seen any distro replicate Aero Peek, though, for example.
    Most distros don't fold applications into icons on taskbar (aka Windows 7 style).
    Some do not even have search functionality on start menu.

    Ah, but I have given up so long ago to find a good UI, so I don't really remember/care anymore.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

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