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C++ --> Fun ?

This is a discussion on C++ --> Fun ? within the Tech Board forums, part of the Community Boards category; Here is an interesting piece of news: [Phoronix] Google Wants To Make C++ More Fun I'm slightly sceptical of this. ...

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    Registered User manasij7479's Avatar
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    C++ --> Fun ?

    Here is an interesting piece of news:
    [Phoronix] Google Wants To Make C++ More Fun

    I'm slightly sceptical of this.
    Sure it can result in a better IDE (dunno how much better than the current ones ).

    But it would be frightening if something like Visual Basic with a C++ skeleton comes out of this.

    Any clarification ?

    [@You Know Who (s): Posted this on Tech Board by mistake, move to GD if appropriate.]
    Last edited by manasij7479; 06-16-2012 at 03:18 PM.
    Manasij Mukherjee | gcc-4.8.2 @Arch Linux
    Slow and Steady wins the race... if and only if :
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    2.The fast and unsteady suddenly falls asleep while running !



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    I'm sceptical too.

    Better tooling support is a good thing, and a worthy aim, certainly. It can automate activities and processes, which machines can follow better than humans. That can allow the human to spend more time doing things that humans do better than machines, and therefore increase enjoyment. Depending on how that tooling support is designed and implemented, it can also embody the view of one person (or one company in this case) of how development should be done, or what types of development are worth supporting, making it difficult to do things in other ways, hence reducing enjoyment for some developers.

    Fun is a very subjective concept. What is fun for me, is not necessarily fun for you, and vice versa - and there is nothing wrong with that, unless our sense of fun causes harm. The things that contribute to our sense of fun are also not always appropriate to a particular problem solving or task-related setting. That reflects how our brains are wired, our genetics, our experiences, and a bunch of other things that psychologists and other experts are still trying to understand (hopefully with their own sense of fun). Those things will not be changed by any toolchain.
    Right 98% of the time, and don't care about the other 3%.

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    Super Moderator VirtualAce's Avatar
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    This is something that needs to be done in MSVS. The C++ side of the IDE is lagging far behind the C# side.

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    Master Apprentice phantomotap's Avatar
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    O_o

    Better tools is a solid win, but I don't like this "selling the fun" thing.

    It makes them look kind of desperate if you ask me.

    Give a programmer a better tool and he will generally thank you for it; there is no need of pretending that the tool is going to somehow inject entertainment where there may not be any to be had.

    Soma

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    Registered User antred's Avatar
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    Besides, making "C++ more fun than Java" (as it says in the PDF) isn't setting the bar very high. Java is about as much fun as sticking a rusty nail into your eye (well, to me anyway).
    manasij7479, Elysia and Elkvis like this.

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    Cat without Hat CornedBee's Avatar
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    Basically, they want the flow of work you have when writing Java in Eclipse (or a similarly advanced IDE) for C++. This means fast renaming and other refactorings. This means a suggestion pop-up that works and doesn't take a second (15 if you just changed some header).

    As much as I like C++ as a language, I hurt every time I move back from Java or C# programming to C++ programming because refactoring (and thus making code prettier) is so much harder.
    All the buzzt!
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    Registered User antred's Avatar
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    I think the main reason for slow Intellisense in C++ mode is that C++ as a language is MUCH harder to parse than Java or C#. I'd love to see a more functional Intellisense in Visual Studio but I'm not holding my breath.

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    Registered User manasij7479's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antred View Post
    I think the main reason for slow Intellisense in C++ mode is that C++ as a language is MUCH harder to parse than Java or C#.
    The IDE I use (KDevelop (4.3.1)) does it quite fast even in very large projects (eg: the whole KDE SC)... and I don't even have a very fast machine for it.
    (*Much* better in comparison to Eclipse CDT, but not as configurable...in my opinion.)
    Last edited by manasij7479; 06-18-2012 at 05:37 AM.
    Manasij Mukherjee | gcc-4.8.2 @Arch Linux
    Slow and Steady wins the race... if and only if :
    1.None of the other participants are fast and steady.
    2.The fast and unsteady suddenly falls asleep while running !



  9. #9
    Cat without Hat CornedBee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antred View Post
    I think the main reason for slow Intellisense in C++ mode is that C++ as a language is MUCH harder to parse than Java or C#.
    Not really true. Yes, C++ is more complex than Java or C#, but C# is actually quite complex itself, what with all the context-sensitivity it has.
    No, what really kills C++ parse (and reparse, for the IDE) times is the preprocessor. The preprocessor is the reason why a module system is so hard to create, and lack of a module system is the reason why templates and so much other code is in header files that are textually included, and that in turn means that the compiler has to do way too much work to parse a single file.
    antred likes this.
    All the buzzt!
    CornedBee

    "There is not now, nor has there ever been, nor will there ever be, any programming language in which it is the least bit difficult to write bad code."
    - Flon's Law

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    Captain Crash brewbuck's Avatar
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    Yawn.

    Just install Visual Assist-X
    Code:
    //try
    //{
    	if (a) do { f( b); } while(1);
    	else   do { f(!b); } while(1);
    //}

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    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    Too expensive...
    Academic license is too restricted...
    Other than that, it is nice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

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    I have had pretty good experience with Qt Creator's code completion popup and re-parsing. I realize that it's a bit specialized, but it actually works very well as a general purpose IDE.

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    Super Moderator VirtualAce's Avatar
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    VisualAssist is nice once you get it configured not to alter every single color in your IDE.

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    Cat without Hat CornedBee's Avatar
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    Meh. VisualAssist is not powerful enough by far, and pretty slow too. Also, extremely ugly interface. CodeRush is better, but still not where I want it.
    All the buzzt!
    CornedBee

    "There is not now, nor has there ever been, nor will there ever be, any programming language in which it is the least bit difficult to write bad code."
    - Flon's Law

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    Registered User antred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CornedBee View Post
    Not really true [...]
    I concede, as far as the time required for a full parse is concerned. But besides that, there is also the issue of Intellisense being easily confused by some of the more advanced constructs of the C++ language, particularly if you're working with a lot of template voodoo. Many times Intellisense will try for a few seconds to make sense of it and then simply throw in the towel.

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