Rechargable Energizer scam

This is a discussion on Rechargable Energizer scam within the Tech Board forums, part of the Community Boards category; And what exactly does one thing got to do with the other? Home invasion is breaking the law. Get caught ...

  1. #16
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    And what exactly does one thing got to do with the other?
    Home invasion is breaking the law. Get caught or not.

    How do you propose to legislate a situation like that of the D battery to make it illegal? I'm overly curious.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  2. #17
    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    How do you propose to legislate a situation like that of the D battery to make it illegal? I'm overly curious.
    Well, as some previous posts have mentioned, maybe it is breaking the law -- but probably not, since Energizer Corp. surely have a legal team to foresee such issues.

    Anyway, it should be. The law is not a static fixture handed to us by Moses. If I scam $45 million from the public, is that better or worse than taking $50 from one old woman? Surely it is her own fault for being stupid (she left the door unlocked = dumb consumer) and weak. According to your argument, in a healthy, competitive society, people should be encourage to exploit the weakness and stupidity of others in order to discourage stupidity and weakness, and allow the smart and strong to assume their rightful place managing everything (inc. that $50). So I guess if you really are stupid and weak, that's just too bad, the old woman is a minority casualty...that's the price you pay for being so civilized.
    C programming resources:
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    Current ISO draft standard
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  3. #18
    Jack of many languages Dino's Avatar
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    This could end up similar to what happened to the breakfast cereal makers a few years ago. Consumers found out the cereal makers were making more $ on the cardboard boxes than the food. Right after that, the price of "cereal" dropped.
    Mac and Windows cross platform programmer. Ruby lover.

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    Amen brother!

  4. #19
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    The problem, as I see it here, is that they do display on the battery the correct capacity. So there's no way they could be charged of false advertisement. They are selling a D battery with 2500 mAh. They aren't breaking the law.

    It's up to consumer rights organizations and the public in general (like the author on that article) to give the wake up call and inform everyone the company is supposedly taking advantage of their lack of knowledge and selling them an inferior product at 3x the normal price.

    Now the only way I could see to legislate against these corporate moves was to create limits on battery capacity based on their type. This is exactly the type of legislation I'd expect to see being made by the bloody European Union which is eager to legislate how many teeth are allowed in forks. But let me tell you about it... An whole apple industry was destroyed in Portugal sending 300 people to unemployment and closing down 16 producers in the southern part of Portugal when the European Union regulated how apples should look like. The Algarve apple is cultivated since ancient times, is one of the best apples in this country. Small, ugly and with a divine taste! Today you can only find it cultivated by home growers.

    I suspect that wouldn't be a problem for battery makers. But this type of legislation doesn't stop there. Once you start, there's no reason to stop. From batteries to apples down to closing down your corner Deli which serve those burgers that beat the hell out of mcdonalds every single day of the week, simply because they happen to use a wooden spon to mix the sauce.

    Start asking your government to legislate against these things. Encourage them and you will get to see the results. Or look no further then to Europe where even old cultural traditions were closed down because they didn't fit in the new legislation.

    F*k if I let the government decide for me what I should buy!
    I feel like Eastern Germany is back and taken all of Europe. That's what.
    Last edited by Mario F.; 08-27-2009 at 07:33 PM.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  5. #20
    Captain Crash brewbuck's Avatar
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    Wow -- I don't see the problem here.

    Battery sizes are form factors. It has never been about capacity. Your brains are all making an assumption (unconsciously, apparently) that a larger battery must have a larger quantity of energy stored in it. What justification do you have for believing that?

    D form-factor batteries are in general more expensive than AA. This is because there are fewer applications which require the D form factor. The difference which is relevant to the application is not the total capacity but the internal resistance of the battery. In other words, a D battery can supply a larger peak current than an AA -- at least, that was the tradition.

    You guys are crazy. Do you also assume that a large SUV must be more fuel efficient than a compact car because it is larger? Do you assume that fat people are more fun to hang out with than skinny ones?
    Code:
    //try
    //{
    	if (a) do { f( b); } while(1);
    	else   do { f(!b); } while(1);
    //}

  6. #21
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    And today I just learned another new thing. Twice on the same thread!
    Damn me if I just didn't learn how to buy batteries
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  7. #22
    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    Damn me if I just didn't learn how to buy batteries
    Yes, well, sorry for being slightly rabid 'cause I guess that is the point.

    But it is still a scam, unless you have some really rosy glasses at hand. The battery is rechargable -- no one in their right mind would buy a "low capacity" rechargeable battery at a "high capacity" price unless they didn't understand that it was low capacity.

    Maybe the regulation should be, if you want to market a low capacity battery, you can put that on the package EXPLICITLY. Of course, I guess there is already a parallel with the "heavy duty" vs. "alkaline" thing.
    Last edited by MK27; 08-27-2009 at 08:03 PM.
    C programming resources:
    GNU C Function and Macro Index -- glibc reference manual
    The C Book -- nice online learner guide
    Current ISO draft standard
    CCAN -- new CPAN like open source library repository
    3 (different) GNU debugger tutorials: #1 -- #2 -- #3
    cpwiki -- our wiki on sourceforge

  8. #23
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    No biggie, MK. The debate was interesting.
    I do agree from the very start it's a scam of sorts, now assuming the battery resistance is also unchanged. I'm only arguing against the idea of legislating against these type of things. Let the market sort itself out. It always does.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  9. #24
    Super Moderator VirtualAce's Avatar
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    As to the second question, at least I got the chance to vote for the gov't.
    Let me know how your guy worked out in the end will ya. It's usually the lesser of two evils. They are both evil just not in the same political areas.

    You guys are crazy. Do you also assume that a large SUV must be more fuel efficient than a compact car because it is larger? Do you assume that fat people are more fun to hang out with than skinny ones?
    ROFLMAO. Very nice.

    I think Energizer is probably laughing all the way to the bank. I'm sure before they did this they had the lawyers involved. They may have just gotten away with the biggest 'in-your-face' rip-off. In your face because they posted the capacity right on the packaging knowing that 90% of the people would never read it nor care. They basically tell you on the package you are getting a sub-standard battery but no one cares b/c they don't read the packaging. That is beyond funny. Bet it's not the only product of this type out there either. 'Green' and 'eco' is in so make sure you read and investigate before you buy b/c it's one area I'm sure companies are simply cashing in on w/o actually having a good product.

    I think they deserve some credit for actually pulling it off.
    Last edited by VirtualAce; 08-27-2009 at 11:13 PM.

  10. #25
    not-a-geek
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    Now the only way I could see to legislate against these corporate moves was to create limits on battery capacity based on their type.
    A bit specific, don't you think? How about a law against misleading advertisement? (larger size+higher price vs same capacity)

    Quote Originally Posted by brewbuck View Post
    Battery sizes are form factors. It has never been about capacity. Your brains are all making an assumption (unconsciously, apparently) that a larger battery must have a larger quantity of energy stored in it. What justification do you have for believing that?
    People always make assumptions; nobody ever has all the information required to go without. Exploiting this situation still qualifies as scam.

    What justification would you give for selling a plastic ring for 10$? Lower sales because of fewer applications? Hardly.
    main() { int O[!0<<~-!0]; (!0<<!0)[O]+= ~0 +~(!0|!0<<!0); printf("a function calling "); }

  11. #26
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyda View Post
    A bit specific, don't you think? How about a law against misleading advertisement? (larger size+higher price vs same capacity)
    There are laws against misleading advertisement. And as it was said before numerous times (you people should really read the the whole threads and not just the last posts) they didn't false advertise.

    Unless you mean we should now make laws to stop bad business practices. Police state.

    EDIT: Look, you don't like their practice, boycott their products. That's the real power. You have it, your government doesn't. Companies can't circumvent that. It beats any law and is how a market is expected to be operated.
    Last edited by Mario F.; 08-28-2009 at 07:15 AM.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  12. #27
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    I think the problem is that people assume similarly sized batteries with similar prices to be of similar capacity, because if they weren't, no one would buy them, and they won't see those batteries in stores. They are under the assumption that the market has already sorted itself out, and what's left should all be reasonably/competitively priced.

    If the battery is from a no-name brand in China, they would have probably checked a bit more closely. But it's from Energizer. People trust the brand, and would buy their batteries assuming they are at least decent compared to the competition. Energizer is exploiting exactly this to rip people off. Legal or not I don't know. Certainly unethical. They are abusing their customers' trust.

    The way we make the market sort it out? I say we spread the words to as many people as possible.

  13. #28
    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    Unless you mean we should now make laws to stop bad business practices. Police state.
    That is not a "police state". A "police state" is one in which we round up all the Jews and Communists to serve in forced labour for big business.

    The Nazis, for example, were extremely pro-industry and pro-business. Since they did not regulate bad business practices, I guess Nazi Germany must rank low on the list of potential "police states".

    In fact, it will be impossible for you to name a single historical "police state" that regulated bad business practices, Mario.

    And I would consider laws that curtail personal freedoms -- such as where and when (and what) I can smoke -- far far more indicative of a police state, since that literally involves actual police trundling about everywhere and arresting people. Even if the rechargable battery industry were regulated to the gills, this would not mean legions of extra cops parading around, watching everyone on cameras, using fear and intimidation, etc. etc. to make sure they are not packaging AA's as D's.

    Sheesh.
    C programming resources:
    GNU C Function and Macro Index -- glibc reference manual
    The C Book -- nice online learner guide
    Current ISO draft standard
    CCAN -- new CPAN like open source library repository
    3 (different) GNU debugger tutorials: #1 -- #2 -- #3
    cpwiki -- our wiki on sourceforge

  14. #29
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK27 View Post
    Only if you are sort of dumb would you just presume something like that. What if the number represented resistance, or something similar that would be inverse to the productive output?

    Another example: if you went to a car lot with numbers representing the Gallons per Mile fuel consumption...

    Most consumers are smart enough to recognize that they themselves are not omniscient, and also that no one has the time to become an expert in every kind of technology, which is another good reason to regulate industries like this.
    I ask you this:
    If you were a dumb consumer who knew nothing of digital cameras, without consulting an expert, what property would you look at to decide what camera to buy? Of course you would choose a brand you knew well, but you still have to choose a model among that manufacturer's models.

    Quote Originally Posted by brewbuck View Post
    Wow -- I don't see the problem here.

    Battery sizes are form factors. It has never been about capacity. Your brains are all making an assumption (unconsciously, apparently) that a larger battery must have a larger quantity of energy stored in it. What justification do you have for believing that?

    D form-factor batteries are in general more expensive than AA. This is because there are fewer applications which require the D form factor. The difference which is relevant to the application is not the total capacity but the internal resistance of the battery. In other words, a D battery can supply a larger peak current than an AA -- at least, that was the tradition.

    You guys are crazy. Do you also assume that a large SUV must be more fuel efficient than a compact car because it is larger? Do you assume that fat people are more fun to hang out with than skinny ones?
    Oh really?
    So that is to say that you cannot, say, put 4 AA in a single D cell, in parallel?
    And that is also why, as according to the link found in the article, these recommended batteries (http://www.betterlifegoods.com/Produ...e=BLG-CAT21450) have a rating of 11 Ah?
    It's not just about the amount of energy flow it has, but also its capacity. Why is there flashlights that are named to be long lasting when they accept D-sized cells?
    A D-cell can have high capacity as well as great energy flow.

    Oh yeah, and as for the heated discussion: it's merely unethical business practices. I don't think they say anywhere something that is not true of the battery. And in that case, it wouldn't be illegal. Heck, even straight out lying about batteries isn't illegal in most places I know. What I do know is that if a customer is tricked when purchasing some product, there are usually laws to protect against that. Here, for example, it is possible to demand a refund, and even compensation if the product has caused enough trouble for the consumer.
    Last edited by Elysia; 08-28-2009 at 07:36 AM.
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  15. #30
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK27 View Post
    That is not a "police state". A "police state" is one in which we round up all the Jews and Communists to serve in forced labour for big business.
    ...

    I'm speechless.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

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