Who doesn't format Windows?

This is a discussion on Who doesn't format Windows? within the Tech Board forums, part of the Community Boards category; Originally Posted by cyberfish Does one need to know all about Windows to be able to use it effectively? What ...

  1. #16
    and the hat of sweating
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Toronto, ON
    Posts
    3,545
    Quote Originally Posted by cyberfish View Post
    Does one need to know all about Windows to be able to use it effectively?
    What makes you think one needs to know all about UNIX to use it effectively?

    Good memory is not necessary, too. "[command] --help" will usually give a list of parameters with short descriptions. Commonly used commands will be memorized automatically (how can you not remember "ls" if you are typing it 100 times / day?).

    I don't think UNIX users intentionally memorize commands and such (well... maybe some do. I certainly don't, and I am still able to use it effectively and efficiently).
    Well you don't need to know everything just to use UNIX, but to do things quickly without spending way too much time reading man pages, you need to memorize a lot of things.
    My desktop at work is Linux, and I can get by pretty well, although sometimes I find myself spending a lot more time looking at man pages than I'd like to.

    The thing is - I've noticed that even though we have things like Eclipse and other GUI tools available, a lot of the UNIX people still like doing all their work on the command line. I painfully watched one girl slowly changing directories, copy & pasting file & directory names together, stumbling through vi... when I could have done the same thing in Eclipse in 5 seconds.
    I guess I'll just never understand UNIX people and their fascination with command lines & their hate of GUIs.
    "I am probably the laziest programmer on the planet, a fact with which anyone who has ever seen my code will agree." - esbo, 11/15/2008

    "the internet is a scary place to be thats why i dont use it much." - billet, 03/17/2010

  2. #17
    C++ Witch laserlight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    20,975
    Quote Originally Posted by cpjust
    The thing is - I've noticed that even though we have things like Eclipse and other GUI tools available, a lot of the UNIX people still like doing all their work on the command line. I painfully watched one girl slowly changing directories, copy & pasting file & directory names together, stumbling through vi... when I could have done the same thing in Eclipse in 5 seconds.
    If she was stumbling through vi, then you are making an invalid comparison. Seasoned vi users do not stumble through it; they edit files faster than you can with GUI editors (or at least faster than I can, and maybe I'm just slow).
    C + C++ Compiler: MinGW port of GCC
    Version Control System: Bazaar

    Look up a C++ Reference and learn How To Ask Questions The Smart Way

  3. #18
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    22,172
    Quote Originally Posted by cpjust View Post
    ...I guess I'll just never understand UNIX people and their fascination with command lines & their hate of GUIs.
    Makes two of us and why I also tend to stay away from Linux. That obsession typically creates utilities that are command-line based first, and sometimes not even a GUI is provided.

    Quote Originally Posted by cyberfish View Post
    Good memory is not necessary, too. "[command] --help" will usually give a list of parameters with short descriptions. Commonly used commands will be memorized automatically (how can you not remember "ls" if you are typing it 100 times / day?).
    Good memory is required to avoid typing [command] --help every time. If you show me how to do something in the GUI, it clicks directly, but if you do it in the command-line, it takes far longer. That's just me.
    Oh and I had completely forgotten "ls". While I have not forgotten how to do view files in the file manager in Linux.

    Quote Originally Posted by cyberfish View Post
    That is the recipe for a flame war =).
    I love flame wars!

    All the effects are configurable, of course, including the theme, unlike Aero. Oh, and it only requires onboard video, too.
    Never said they weren't, and never said Aero's requirements were good either
    I merely mentioned that to me, they were jerky, while Aero's was not, and some effects did not play well together, while all of Aero's effects play well together.

    Usability... you will have to define that. Of course Linux is as unusable to someone that has never used Linux as Windows is to someone who has never used Windows.
    And by usability, I guess I meant the ease of how to use the OS. From my view, of course.
    The only one that rivals Windows in that aspect is MacOS. And it is not just about the command lines, but the pain-staking lack of installers, the recompiling of the kernel if new drivers are installed. This may not affect every program out there, of course, but there are some, and some of those I encountered on my journey, and they frustrated me to no end.
    Oh and the fact that you cannot execute applications right-out-of-the-box. Typically you have to go commmand-line and enable the execute bit before being able to run it. Just annoying, and does not sit well with me.

    Compatibility with Windows programs... well, better than Windows' compatibility with Linux programs .
    Hehehe. Now that would be something, would it not?

    On a more serious note, many programs have open source equivalents (in terms of functionality), eg. Firefox, OpenOffice, Thunderbird, a few open source IM clients, GCC + the GNU toolchain.
    Is Visual Studio / SlickEdit / Word / Excel / Powerpoint / Zoom Player open source? Yes, I know there are alternatives, but those are the ones I tend to use. To me, Open Source is not important.

    Most of the popular commercial Windows programs can run under wine (an open-source implementation of Windows API on Linux).
    Can the above mentioned programs run under Wine? No? Too bad. Lots of compatibility for others, but none for me :/

    As for advantages -
    Open source and free (both in terms of beer and speech)
    Free I agree, open source, I really do not care...

    Security - no worrying about virii and malware. Before people say it's because Linux is not as widely used, no, it's because of the user priviledge system (and Microsoft made a step in the right direction with Vista's UAC, but unfortunately many people perceive it as an annoying feature and disable it. I have never used it myself, so I won't comment on that. The idea is good, though, but it has existed in UNIX/Linux for more than a few decades already. I would imagine the introduction of UAC breaks some applications, too, since many programs assume they have admin access, and do things like writing to "Program Files", and they were right, until Vista). Being open source makes Linux more secure, too, in the sense of actual vulnerabilities/bugs (as opposed, for example, users executing a malware with admin access voluntarily). Linux also includes a sophisticated firewall (part of it in the kernel, part of it userspace). A lot more sophisticated and configurable than the one included in Windows.
    Perhaps, but again, this depends on how careful you are. You might download an installer or something that looks like a game, so you go root and execute it. Boom! System infected. Same with Windows. I do not like to put much on that whole security bit. Be careful and know what you are doing. It is not that Linux is more secure, I cannot really agree.

    You are right about UAC. It is completely worthless, so I too, have disabled it. It pops up everytime a program wants something. It says nothing of what the application intends. Err, OK - how am I supposed to know if to agree or not?
    It pops up every abyssius time. If I dismiss it once for that application, for that action, then I do not want it anymore, usually. They are far too frequent.
    And thirdly, they limit access to the hard drive for unpackaging utilities, for example. Mostly because there are applications that still do not ask for UAC privileges out there and thus simply fail...

    As for the firewall, do not compare Linux's firewall to Window's default one. It is completely insecure, as much do we know. That is why we use good 3rd party firewalls. You are free to compare to those, if you want. Maybe it is a hassle to have to get a 3rd party one instead of relying on a built-in one, but oh well. We cannot have all.

    "natural" - it just "makes more sense", perhaps because it is actually designed by users. For example, the update script won't restart the computer automatically after installing updates (sure, you can probably change that, but why have it as the default!?!?). It also makes me wonder how much better Windows would be if Microsoft spent all the effort on fighting piracy with all those annoying "features" on actually improving Windows. Perhaps they have figured that they make more money doing those things than improving the software since Windows is the only choice for the average Joe (which constitutes most of the population), and they have to buy it anyways. I know this is largely subjective, but the overall atmosphere is a lot less "commercialized" in the Linux world, which I find attractive. It feels like the good old days when people mutually share their programs open sourced and get excited when other people use them. That kind of relationships between developers and users are, I think, far more enjoyable than between, say, an average Joe and Microsoft. I have contacted a few open source developers about their programs, and most of the replies I got are very helpful and enthusiastic. Some even implemented features just because I suggested them. They are actually enthusiastic about their programs. It's the kind of enthusiasm we won't find in, for example, a support email from Microsoft.
    Methinks you are confused on this one. Windows is very user-oriented, in that they design for the users. There are some annoying issues left like things forcing a restart down your throat. And I would rather Microsoft fight these pesky small issues than piracy instead. Maybe they we would have a more usable OS.
    I do agree that Linux is slightly better in this regard. No annoying focus steal. No popups out of nowhere. No forced reboots, etc.
    And there are commercial programs that are happy to receive your input...

    Productivity - powerful command line tools allow easy automation of many tasks like differential backup, file management (eg. delete files that are older than xyz, with a .txt extension, and with a length that is an odd number), batch image manipulation, and what I have actually done - a script that parses the National Geographic site and download the "picture of the day", remove the black banner, scale it, and set it as my wallpaper. All in a few lines, leveraging the power of wget, a command line file downloader, grep, a utility that searches a file for specific tokens, ImageMagick, a command line image processing program, and the command line interface of my desktop manager (GNOME). Sure, for average Joes this kind of things aren't important, but for computer literate people (people who aren't afraid of learning new things), this is quite priceless.
    For the power-users, yes. To me, that is mumbo jumbo, and makes absolutely no sense (sense in that I cannot understand or use it). But it is good that it is there for the power-users.
    Of course, me hating that stuff, I could not care less.

    Both OSes have their pros and cons...
    And that is what we wanted to say all day long, eh?
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.
    For information on how to enable C++11 on your compiler, look here.
    よく聞くがいい!私は天才だからね! ^_^

  4. #19
    Woof, woof! zacs7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    3,459
    I'd say all (good) programmers are computer literate... if not then you have a problem.

    To put it bluntly, for example vi is far quicker to use than any GUI will ever be. Of course once you climb the learning curve mountain =). The command-line is also usually faster than a GUI to do the same thing.

  5. #20
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    22,172
    Quote Originally Posted by zacs7 View Post
    To put it bluntly, for example vi is far quicker to use than any GUI will ever be. Of course once you climb the learning curve mountain =). The command-line is also usually faster than a GUI to do the same thing.
    Perhaps we could apply the "use the right tool for the job" here?
    Some people are never going to learn command lines, and thus GUI will always be faster and more productive.
    But some people will always prefer command lines over GUIs, and thus it will be more practical to them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.
    For information on how to enable C++11 on your compiler, look here.
    よく聞くがいい!私は天才だからね! ^_^

  6. #21
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    3,145
    Good memory is required to avoid typing [command] --help every time. If you show me how to do something in the GUI, it clicks directly, but if you do it in the command-line, it takes far longer. That's just me.
    I'd say the cost of looking up command switches is amortized, because of the 80-20 rule - 80% of the commands issued are 20% of all possible commands, and people memorize those because they are so frequently used. Sure, for the other 20% of issued commands, the cost is doubled (first one to get the "--help"), but the time wasted is relatively insignificant. In this case, the ratio is actually more like 95-5 than 80-20.

    I love flame wars!
    Me, too! That's something we agree on .

    I merely mentioned that to me, they were jerky, while Aero's was not, and some effects did not play well together, while all of Aero's effects play well together.
    I am using the default set of effects, and they work quite nicely and smoothly. Granted I have a GeForce 9600 GT... . Worked fine with my old 8600 GT, too. Unfortunately I have never tried it with older video cards.

    I won't continue the argument on security... since it has been argued quite throughly in another thread not long ago .

    And by usability, I guess I meant the ease of how to use the OS. From my view, of course.
    And from my view, of someone who has 3 years of experience with Linux and 10 years of experience with Windows, Linux is more usable . Sure, Linux is harder to learn, but once learned, it just makes things so much easier.

    Methinks you are confused on this one. Windows is very user-oriented, in that they design for the users. There are some annoying issues left like things forcing a restart down your throat.
    I guess the difference is that Windows is designed for the average Joe, while Linux is designed for computer literate people. It makes sense for Windows because 99% of all users are the average Joe. It would be suicidal for Microsoft to orient the OS towards computer literate people. On the contrary, open source developers have no such obligation to make money. They don't need to deal with user idiocity (how do you spell that again? =P). As we all know, it is way more fun to program for literate people than the average Joe. Open source developers assume the user knows what he is doing. Microsoft setting the Windows Update default to automatically restart the computer without user consent clearly shows that they assume the user doesn't know what he/she is doing, and I don't like that feeling .

    And I would rather Microsoft fight these pesky small issues than piracy instead
    I don't think Microsoft agrees that the restart issue is an issue . It's clearly a design decision they made.

    And there are commercial programs that are happy to receive your input...
    Few and far between. The level of interactivity between user and developer is way more in the open source world than the commercial world. Try to get some feature added for you personally in Windows 7 . Ask that of a Linux developer, assuming the request is reasonable (implementable and makes sense), there is a high chance you will get it. On the other hand, they do expect more of their users, too. When they receive a request for support email, they assume you have already throughly read the documentation and Googled. If that's not the case, they can simply delete your e-mail. They have no obligation to help you (feel free to get the program refunded ), unlike commercial developers, and I think that is fair. They are generally very excited about their program, too, because they are developing not because they have to, but because they enjoy doing it.

    For the power-users, yes. To me, that is mumbo jumbo, and makes absolutely no sense (sense in that I cannot understand or use it). But it is good that it is there for the power-users.
    Of course, me hating that stuff, I could not care less.
    True, there is a learning curve. The question is whether it pays off. For me, definitely. I do things much more efficiently now than I used to, thanks to all those mumbo jumbo.

    For me, I first started to learn Linux about 3 years ago (Red Hat 9 ), to learn more about computers in general. I wasn't satisfied with just seeing it from Microsoft's perspective. I wanted to separate my understanding of computers from my understanding of Windows. It is quite difficult to do without knowing another OS. For example, it never occurred to me that the idea of "drive letters" is actually a Microsoft invention, and not something fundamental in computers, until I learned that Linux doesn't use them. That is to say, I learned Linux purely for the sake of learning it, without any intention to actually use it. I thought I would give it a few months to be reasonably familiar with it, then I will wipe it out and get Windows back. Didn't happen .

  7. #22
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    250
    Whether it be linux, or windows, who cares, it's just what you're used to. My mother is as computer illiterate as they come, and she uses linux. Why? Because I'm sick and tired of having to reinstall/fix her windows box every 2 months because she doesnt know to keep her mouse pointer away from malware. And no, Windows is not that easy to setup so that she could do it by herself. Neither could she set up a linux box of course.

    Does she have to know the system in and out? Of course not. Want to browse the net? Just press that little icon over there. Want to listen to music? Press that one over there. And the joy of it all? I never have to fix anything, simply because she cant screw *anything* up. EDIT: Of course she could delete all her personal files, but that's it.

    As far as I'm concerned, linux is a far better choice for her, then windows will ever be, and that should end this whole nonsensical discussion.

    Just my 2 cents.
    Last edited by MWAAAHAAA; 11-09-2008 at 05:52 AM.

  8. #23
    Cat without Hat CornedBee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    8,892
    I would totally install Linux for my mother, but every now and then her school decides that they must now use this great new app for ... whatever, and then it would't run, because of course the damn thing is a Windows application. If it was up to me ...
    All the buzzt!
    CornedBee

    "There is not now, nor has there ever been, nor will there ever be, any programming language in which it is the least bit difficult to write bad code."
    - Flon's Law

  9. #24
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    22,172
    Actually, the same thing back in the days for a certain individual in my household.
    But I did not install Linux - I found a far better solution - run that certain individual on a standard user account (using XP). No problems. When something had to be installed, I would do it myself.
    The very same thing that Vista tries to do with UAC (only problem being that it is horribly broken) and Linux does with its root.

    It is just the principle, not the OS.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.
    For information on how to enable C++11 on your compiler, look here.
    よく聞くがいい!私は天才だからね! ^_^

  10. #25
    Hail to the king, baby. Akkernight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Faroe Islands
    Posts
    717
    I've had my fair share of problems with windows :P I think I've reformatted about 20 times, in my three to four year useage of computers (I know, I'm new, but wasn't easy getting one :P)
    Other than that, you people got me thinking about Linux or Ubuntu or what ever...
    Can I have Linux and windows on the same PC?
    Does Linux support directX?
    Does Linux support all games? Except those who are "Vista only" but would be great if it did support them too :P
    Does Linux support Visual Studio?
    Currently research OpenGL

  11. #26
    Cat without Hat CornedBee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    8,892
    Can I have Linux and windows on the same PC?
    Yes.

    Does Linux support directX?
    Wine has some DirectX support. But for your own programs, you should use OpenGL and other libraries.

    Does Linux support all games?
    No. A game needs to be cleanly written to run under Wine, and even then there's some chance it won't run. But most games aren't cleanly written. The Wine homepage has a huge application compatibility database.

    Does Linux support Visual Studio?
    Refer to the database. I don't think so, though.
    All the buzzt!
    CornedBee

    "There is not now, nor has there ever been, nor will there ever be, any programming language in which it is the least bit difficult to write bad code."
    - Flon's Law

  12. #27
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    22,172
    Quote Originally Posted by CornedBee View Post
    Refer to the database. I don't think so, though.
    Highly unlikely. 'Tis a shame.

    But mostly, Linux and Windows are just about the way you go about doing things.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.
    For information on how to enable C++11 on your compiler, look here.
    よく聞くがいい!私は天才だからね! ^_^

  13. #28
    Reverse Engineer maxorator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Estonia
    Posts
    2,318
    Quote Originally Posted by Akkernight View Post
    Does Linux support all games? Except those who are "Vista only" but would be great if it did support them too :P
    Does Linux support Visual Studio?
    If Windows doesn't support Linux applications, why do you expect Linux to support Windows applications?
    "The Internet treats censorship as damage and routes around it." - John Gilmore

  14. #29
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    22,172
    Quote Originally Posted by maxorator View Post
    If Windows doesn't support Linux applications, why do you expect Linux to support Windows applications?
    I guess because of all the talk of Wine and how it runs Windows apps under Linux?
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.
    For information on how to enable C++11 on your compiler, look here.
    よく聞くがいい!私は天才だからね! ^_^

  15. #30
    Hail to the king, baby. Akkernight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Faroe Islands
    Posts
    717
    so... anyone up for giving link to simplest linux "version" ubuntu maybe? and i need one that can be installed with anoter os, does not erase it
    Currently research OpenGL

Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Popular pages Recent additions subscribe to a feed

Similar Threads

  1. Just starting Windows Programming, School me!
    By Shamino in forum Windows Programming
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 02-22-2008, 07:14 AM
  2. how to make a windows application
    By crvenkapa in forum C++ Programming
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 03-26-2007, 09:59 AM
  3. Question..
    By pode in forum Windows Programming
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 12-19-2004, 06:05 PM
  4. IE 6 status bar
    By DavidP in forum Tech Board
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 10-23-2002, 05:31 PM
  5. Lil Anti Windows Humor
    By RoD in forum A Brief History of Cprogramming.com
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 10-02-2002, 12:01 PM

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21