Commerical MMORPG Developer Opp

This is a discussion on Commerical MMORPG Developer Opp within the Projects and Job Recruitment forums, part of the Community Boards category; Hello everyone, I am the leader for a new MMORPG Game Project. I would first like to start out by ...

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    Commerical MMORPG Developer Opp

    Hello everyone,

    I am the leader for a new MMORPG Game Project. I would first like to start out by saying this is an open job which welcomes those who may not be the best, but we ask that you do know what you're doing. This is offered as a learning experience which has a possiblity to become a full-time job. Those who are interested in immediate pay jobs should stop looking now. This is an attempt by myself and other coders and 3D Model Designers and Concept Artists along with a few concept and storyline designers to make an MMORPG and eventually, should the game be successful, release it on a commerical level. I am not personally anywhere near an expert on C/C++ programming, but rather know some very basics and am a team leader who takes interest in programming and gaming and enjoy writing lore. Along with leading this project, I am also one of three who write lore for the intended game.

    Before I go too much further into information about this project, I should make it clear that this is a volunteer job for those who are interested in an opportunity to take part in game development from home in their spare time, and work with a professional and organized team of programmers and artists. If and when the game reaches a state of stable completion and good progress, those who put a major effort into the project will have the opportunity at a position in a company which will lead the game and begin looking to join with a publisher in order to mass produce the game. This will be no quick project, and it will require a lot of dedication. If you have spare time and are looking for project, we invite you to apply to one of the positions below where you qualify. Will now continue with the rest of the project information...

    Below are a list of currently available positions.

    (2) - Sound / Music Developers
    (2) - 3D Model Design and Texturing
    (4) - C++ Programmers

    This is an MMORPG that will be like any other MMORPG, subscriptions and all, should the game's creation turn out to be successful, I do have everything lined up to form a company and put the game into mass production. Meaning, should the game be a success, those who do put great time and effort into the game have an extremely good chance to get something back out of it...something nice .

    This isn't going to be a knock-off 2D MMO or anything like that. We have modellers and we're building our own game engine. This is an organized and professional team. We require that all staff be mature and able to work well with other people. We will be releasing an official game website soon and from that website along with here we will continue to post when there are more job openings.
    =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
    Position Descriptions
    Sound / Music Developers
    Sound / Music developers will be in charge of creating the general musics and sounds found throughout the epic game-world. Must be skilled and have be able to provide some examples of sounds they are able to create. Like said, this isn't some kind of runescape sort of MMORPG, this is fully-3D and will require that you make somewhat realistic sounds. Mario-style sounds will not cut it. (Medium Grade Return)

    3D Model Design and Texturing
    3D Model Designers and Texture Artist will be responsible for creating creatures and character designs along with item, building, and object creation. Those wishing to apply ask a Model Designer we ask that you please provide at least 2 (preferred 3) examples of model/texture work you have done. (High Grade Return)

    C++ Programmers
    C++ Programmers will be working across both the Client and the Server side of the project. We don't need many for the server half of the project, we are currently in need mostly for assistant client programmers. Client Programmers will work with building the game's engine and implementing of major features into the game. Experience in coding applications from scratch is needed and you must know about various forums of data encryption and networking protocols (to manage/interpret send and receive data). Experience with the World of Warcraft client in itself is a major bonus as the game engine will be taking off of the World of Warcraft Client. Server programmers need to know pretty much the same materials, only we ask that server programmers be experienced with mySQL Databases as well. (Server Developers: Medium Grade Return // Client Developers: Very High Grade Return)

    =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
    How to Apply
    Those who are interested in applying for any of the positions listed above, please connect to the Emupedia IRC network (irc://emupedia.com) and send a message to Th3Guy. Be sure to include examples of your work and a little bit about yourself. Preferred Alternate ways of contact such as e-mail. Alternatively, you may also send me (th3guy) a private message via these forums or through my email 'mobile.bigthboy --*at-- gmail.com'

    This team has already been formed and we are accepting additions to the team. We already do have people working. This IS a young project still, but with dedicated people, we can make this work.

    Work created for the Project belongs to myself (Th3Guy) and other project leaders. All staff leaders reserve the right to terminate your position on the team at any time. Failure to check in on a regular basis will result in your removal from the team. Once removed all your access to all files and your ownership of anything will be removed. You automatically agree to the terms that Th3Guy is in full ownership of whatever you produce for the use of the project. Credits will be given to all those who were on the team as of the time of project completion date (which will be decided and announced to the team at the correct time). Very detailed/specific logs will be kept of work put in by various members of the team. Compensation will be awarded according to who put in more work and the conditions requied to complete the task assigned to them. The return grades are expected returns should the project be a success. Returns will be in Monetary USD formats when that day comes.

    We ask anyone interested please apply! Out of applicants we will only select a limited few and those who are capable of completeing the tasks. This is a real job, and like mentioned earlier, should this game get finished, finished correctly, and found to be stable and enjoyable by the limited amount of public testers, this game will become market live and compensation for the work you have done will be offered.

    Thanks, and have a nice day

    -Th3Guy
    Project Leader / Storyline Designer

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    Job positions Update-

    We have 1 space remaining for programmers
    We have 1 space reamining for concept artist and modeller (each 1)

    Thank you to those who took an interest.

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    The official website for this project has been launched.

    http://forums.chroniclesoflorian.com/ - We have a new Job Application method there.

  4. #4
    ATH0 quzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Th3Guy
    This isn't going to be a knock-off 2D MMO or anything like that.
    It's going to instead be a knock-off 3D MMO.
    Quote Originally Posted by Th3Guy
    Experience with the World of Warcraft client in itself is a major bonus as the game engine will be taking off of the World of Warcraft Client.
    Lawsuit much? You're about to.


    Quzah.
    Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.

  5. #5
    For Narnia! Sentral's Avatar
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    This is an MMORPG that will be like any other MMORPG, subscriptions and all, should the game's creation turn out to be successful, I do have everything lined up to form a company and put the game into mass production. Meaning, should the game be a success, those who do put great time and effort into the game have an extremely good chance to get something back out of it...something nice .
    May I make a critique? You're going to put the game into "mass production", and you have a forum as an official site? Hmm...BTW, if your going to offer compensation, people want it upfront or a guarantee, not "should the game be a success".
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by quzah
    Lawsuit much?
    Quzah.
    It isn't the wow engine, but we will be designing ours to be similar. You cannot deny, if you read up in the mmorpg industry, that its engine is one of the best. Therefore, we learn from what the wow engine has taught us about what people enjoy. Our engine will be designed to target those players and create an easy transition from a game that covers over 7 million people world-wide. Understand, we want knowledge on how that engine works in concept, we don't want that engine and we're not using WoW's engine.


    The guarentee is something that I would love to promise people up front. It is not smart however, to give estimates, or figures out and then if the team fails you get nothing and wasted your time. The payment and compensation IS guarenteed when the game reaches its ready-for-market point. Until then, we are pushing the fact that this is a project that we get the coders who have time on the side. Most of our developers work for other art or programming companies and are doing this for fun in their spare time. The bonus for them and anyone else who joins is that opportunity to take part in the development of a game, and when its done, depending on how much work you do, get payment in return. I am keeping logs on who does what, and svn of course helps.

    As far as finding people, we have a staff of 20, 4 Model Designers and Texture Designed, 4 C++ Programmers, 2 Web Engineers, 1 Web Designers, 4 Storyline / Concept Designers, 2 Team Leaders (not including me, I'm under storyline), 2 Concept Artists.

    The team of course is growing. And as an update, we are only in need of 1 C++ Programmer at this time, however the position is not critical and is for the purpose of working in between the client and server.

    Th3Guy
    Project Leader / Storyline Designer
    Last edited by Th3Guy; 01-09-2007 at 08:14 PM.

  7. #7
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    I'm cheerfully pessimistic about any "we're creating a ______" opportunities. This one is no different. I don't wish you to fail, but there were a couple of rocky spots that really made me wonder about this one. If nothing else, at least think about these two things.
    1. From the short description you gave about C++ programmers, your client/server organization seems fatally flawed. You describe the client as the engine of the game, holding the major features. So...the client's the engine, the server's just a handy data store?

      Let's swallow that the client is the engine, making all the decisions. Let's suppose that a player does an action that has some chance of success or failure depending upon certain other conditions that are external to the player.

      For example, a mage casts magic missile at another player. At the conceptual level, there's about a million things that could cause this action to fail. Maybe the target is out of range. Maybe the target's race makes him immune to magic. Maybe the target has an uber-shield that reflects the missile back.

      Here's the point: if the client is the engine, how does the client get all this information about the other people? Two answers: either the server is constantly pushing all this information down the pipeline (which is absurdly expensive), or the client requests the information from the server. In both cases, the server already has the information. How did the server get the information? Either the server is polling all the clients and grabbing the information from them (once again, absurdly expensive), or the server always had the information because the clients are always sending to the server. If the server already had the information, then why retransmit the data to a client just so that the client can make a decision? The server (which already has all the information) can make the decision and send the result to the client.

      In my personal opinion, making the client as dumb as possible would be a major design objective. The reason is simple: it's easier to upgrade a server once than to force all your users to update. I'm not discounting the work that a client will have to do, rendering all your fancy graphics and whatnot. I just think decision-making should go along with the entity that has the information readily available instead of needlessly transmitting data and eating up more of your bandwidth.
    2. On to the server side, which will be much shorter. Your qualifications for server programmers make me sad. Even if the client is the engine, everyone's going to be connected to the server. Client programming is instantly scalable to a million users; server programming is not. If you want this to be a MMORPG instead of just a AFFORPG (A few friends ORPG), scalability is an issue from day one. It's something your server programmers are either going to need to know or be able to learn. It's a bit more than networking and databases.
    If I did your homework for you, then you might pass your class without learning how to write a program like this. Then you might graduate and get your degree without learning how to write a program like this. You might become a professional programmer without knowing how to write a program like this. Someday you might work on a project with me without knowing how to write a program like this. Then I would have to do you serious bodily harm. - Jack Klein

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    Quote Originally Posted by pianorain
    I'm cheerfully pessimistic about any "we're creating a ______" opportunities. This one is no different. I don't wish you to fail, but there were a couple of rocky spots that really made me wonder about this one. If nothing else, at least think about these two things.
    1. From the short description you gave about C++ programmers, your client/server organization seems fatally flawed. You describe the client as the engine of the game, holding the major features. So...the client's the engine, the server's just a handy data store?

      Let's swallow that the client is the engine, making all the decisions. Let's suppose that a player does an action that has some chance of success or failure depending upon certain other conditions that are external to the player.

      For example, a mage casts magic missile at another player. At the conceptual level, there's about a million things that could cause this action to fail. Maybe the target is out of range. Maybe the target's race makes him immune to magic. Maybe the target has an uber-shield that reflects the missile back.

      Here's the point: if the client is the engine, how does the client get all this information about the other people? Two answers: either the server is constantly pushing all this information down the pipeline (which is absurdly expensive), or the client requests the information from the server. In both cases, the server already has the information. How did the server get the information? Either the server is polling all the clients and grabbing the information from them (once again, absurdly expensive), or the server always had the information because the clients are always sending to the server. If the server already had the information, then why retransmit the data to a client just so that the client can make a decision? The server (which already has all the information) can make the decision and send the result to the client.

      In my personal opinion, making the client as dumb as possible would be a major design objective. The reason is simple: it's easier to upgrade a server once than to force all your users to update. I'm not discounting the work that a client will have to do, rendering all your fancy graphics and whatnot. I just think decision-making should go along with the entity that has the information readily available instead of needlessly transmitting data and eating up more of your bandwidth.
    2. On to the server side, which will be much shorter. Your qualifications for server programmers make me sad. Even if the client is the engine, everyone's going to be connected to the server. Client programming is instantly scalable to a million users; server programming is not. If you want this to be a MMORPG instead of just a AFFORPG (A few friends ORPG), scalability is an issue from day one. It's something your server programmers are either going to need to know or be able to learn. It's a bit more than networking and databases.
    Thank you for your post and concerns.

    My description and qualifications I agree did seem quite poor. I do however, want to assure you that I am not unfamiliar with the needs of the server. I apologize that my elaboration was unclear. I have been working with other MMORPGs for a few years. Learning various information about how they work and how the server works and what its role is. I do already have server programmers who are quite efficient in their code and very experienced in their programming knowledge and networking knowledge. Our developers have a running, working, hand programmed server for a popular game that exists today (which I will not name, is an MMORPG) which currently supports in excess of 4,000 users with 100ms latency average and 1% CPU usage on a very big and dynamic world.

    I lacked on my server descriptions for that reason, I have the server programming team to handle the situation. We do need a few "assistant" programmers to help things move more efficiently in its production, but our programmers for the server have been doing this for a long time.

    The client I put so much stress on for the soul reason this is where I lacked the spark for interested developers. I am sorry my description came off incorrect (as I stated numerous times already in this post).

    I would like to make it known that we do have development teams started and we are discussing the game's engine in depth at this point in time and our programmers are in the process of planning it out.

    We have space for 1 more assistant server programmer / client programmer cross.


    --> Note: Answers to your questions earlier...
    The client relays basic World Positioning information in x, y, z, map, orientation and then relays information to the client in a highly compressed and encrypted format (to prevent modification) and the game generates information about its surroundings as it encounters them. The game's physical environments such as props, and terrain of course, game objects, are generated by the client in its internal maps, the data about the other players, dynamic items, and npcs/creatures is sent to the client as it reaches a point in which they are near.
    Last edited by Th3Guy; 01-10-2007 at 11:29 PM.

  9. #9
    Insane Game Developer Nodtveidt's Avatar
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    I don't mean to rain on your parade but I see about 20 of these a month on various forums, and out of the 20, 20 of them fail for one reason or another. Yes, that's a 100% failure rate, and it's mainly due to people not knowing the level of work they're getting into. Best of luck though.
    Code:
    cout << "Language comparisons are dumb";
    echo("Language comparisons are dumb");
    PRINT "Language comparisons are dumb"
    alert ("Language comparisons are dumb")

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodtveidt
    I don't mean to rain on your parade but I see about 20 of these a month on various forums, and out of the 20, 20 of them fail for one reason or another. Yes, that's a 100% failure rate, and it's mainly due to people not knowing the level of work they're getting into. Best of luck though.

    Don't worry, didn't rain, just gives me a better reason to be happy whenever its one of the few that does succeed .

  11. #11
    For Narnia! Sentral's Avatar
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    Get a proper website for god sake! It looks like you are a bunch of kids creating a Half-Life 2 mod! "HEY GUYZ L00k at MY W3BS1teZ"! I wouldn't trust you with my money, because it's not professional at all!
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  12. #12
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pianorain
    In my personal opinion, making the client as dumb as possible would be a major design objective. The reason is simple: it's easier to upgrade a server once than to force all your users to update.
    And also makes cheating a much harder prospect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Th3Guy
    Don't worry, didn't rain, just gives me a better reason to be happy whenever its one of the few that does succeed .
    Or the only one one that does succeed. Because I'm currently unaware of any truly successful independent MMORPG at the scale you describe here. Isometric, 2D, Java Based, Social MMORPGs, and the likes are common. Most are free, and most rise and fall as soon as the problems start. And the major problems are:

    - Cheating and the sudden realization that in order to stop it there is a need of major changes to the code.

    - Lack of players as a pool of 100 or 200 or even 400 true paying players (which already provides a very rich environment) won't still be enough to pay for the expenses, salaries, server maintenance, etc...

    - The team. They are people too and they get angry, tired, bored,... Plus the problem of how many is enough? Can two 3D programmers handle all the needs when the game is up and running with paying players or will any additions, bug corrections, and whatnot, be done too slow due to lack of human resources? And what about other parts of the code?

    As a programmer, I deposit a lot more trust on a working environment where things are laid flat to me. "Look, we aren't much, chances are we will fail. But we want to give this a try and succeed where others have failed. How? Well, here's the plan...", after which I'm presented with a nicely thought of and original plan, instead of "The plan is to make money is we succeed during the free version."

    Of course free-enterprise is what moves the world. But when one is in tune with reality. (sorry for being harsh). I'm just not sure you realize the issues here. One last question...

    Do you have the money? Because you will need money. If and when you go commercial you will need a quiet decent connection, more than one server and... pay the people involved even when there's not many players around.

    EDIT: One more thing... you don't succeed in this type of thing hiring people you don't know. It's one thing to be a successful company already. It's another thing to start one. Want to know what you first problem will be? Not the code. The people working on it.
    Last edited by Mario F.; 01-11-2007 at 03:35 PM.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

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    The website is being worked on as we are speaking. The lack of professionalism in it now exist purely for the fact it wasn't meant to be an attraction at this point. The main use of the forums at this moment are for the developers to contact and leave important messages while the SVN is being configured and setup.

    To the other questions. We are aware of cheating aspects and already have ideas on what we plan on doing to handle it, and our ways of avoiding the situation all together. Ideas such as making the server packets harder to decode/read and using other such security methods as monitors to ensure game packets aren't tampered with and that where somebody wants to move, is logical to the server. Since the client only reports the location, if the server gets a packet that provides a movement to it that illogically puts it to a place which does not exist or the distances being moved without the server sending Spell/Effect move packets are too large, the server will flag the account and of course kick and temporarily ban the character who is doing something. Other various checks and balances installed into the server and client together to make sure that common methods of hacking aren't done.

    Money wise, I do have the security for the game's completion. I am related to a banker/loan officer, two large retail store owners, and come from a very business oriented background. Also, have friends and relatives who do have access to high power servers and large data centers which can provide us with at least 4 servers each with their own dedicated OC3 (100mbps) drops to them for an extremely extremely low cost.

    The team members are being watched and monitored for performance and attitude. Anyone joining now, yeah, you will more than likely see someone on the team that, well, won't be with us in a couple weeks or a month due to their immaturity or lack of professionalism and other such issues which arise from people.

    The plan to make money and we succeed during the free version is not what we're aiming at. The goal we seek to achieve is, a game that is both innovative with a more interactive and dynamic world and more options for players, include it with enjoyable 3D Graphics, and provide a good and clean community for players to play in. Thats what I seek to accomplish with this game, that is the primary goal. On the more direct business side, the idea is to complete this game with these specifications, and then provide it to the players at a cost that is 50% less than the average amount of other games of its kind that are comparable in quality.

    As you've quite clearly said and as I stated in the original message, I seek for this to be a learning experience for all of the developers involved, and a chance to create a good and stable game. I promote the post-game-completion business/corporate aspect of it for the raw fact that finding people who are capable of doing quality work, which is most definitely needed for this project, is nearly impossible and provides a major hassle. I've been asked by others, can you assure the money, I can compensation, if the developers can assure a well put together team who works with dedication to achieve this creation. Your compensation depends on your commitment and work. That is only fair, and only rational.

  14. #14
    Insane Game Developer Nodtveidt's Avatar
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    I noticed you have some kind of disdain towards RuneScape...a smart developer would actually look closely at their unique system, as they're one of the most popular long-running MMORPGs still in service. The average MMORPG lifespan is only about 2 years. That's another major problem with doing an MMORPG...do you have enough content planned to keep people drawn in for extended periods of time?

    Oh, I almost forgot...if your MMORPG is combat-centered, it's already boring. PLEASE don't make yet another "go kill 10 mobs for items quest" type of MMORPG, they are SO ultra-boring.

    Okay, I'll stop playing devil's advocate now.
    Last edited by Nodtveidt; 01-13-2007 at 04:09 AM.
    Code:
    cout << "Language comparisons are dumb";
    echo("Language comparisons are dumb");
    PRINT "Language comparisons are dumb"
    alert ("Language comparisons are dumb")

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    A new major Q&A about game features and game information has been posted.

    http://forums.chroniclesoflorian.com/viewtopic.php?t=34

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