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Hey there.. i have some projects in mind. I will use php as i am more fluent on it that i ever been in C or C++.
Now, i need a toolkit to make some client side aplications and probably some fast development IDE.
The options are:
GTK (glade)
XUL
winbinder
wxwidgets
or i can use some other... wich one do you prefer and why?
I will chose the one that's easyer to use...
you want to code a clientside application in a server side scripting language?
why?
gtk/gdk [ glade] perl, c, c++ languages only.
XUL, Mozilla's java interface specification language. requires using the mozilla development tools and using either java or c/c++
wxwidgets, a c++ widget set for c++ programming, there is limited support for python in wxwidgets.
if you are seriously concidering using php to code a clientside application, you will need to put the php interpreter in as a requirement for use on the client system. only usually installed as a webserver module, and usually only on linux boxes.
you will need to have cli scripting support installed as well for php, which is not the norm.
an ide for developing in php.. only the commercial product from Zend.
or code charge studio. [ also commercial ]
both are limited to developing website scripts.
mm, jaqui... you should check out what you can do with php nowadays. It sounds like it has been a llooooooooooooong time since you checked on that.
PHP is not a server side language, it's a general purpose language, that is writen in php.net in the front page.
Nowadays nobody installs php as a server module, that is actualy getting deprecated.
You can compile php code.
If you compile it the PHP itself ( the interpreter ) is no longer requiered, obviously.
You dont need to run it on a linux box.
wxwidgets can be used with php, just as they are used in python.
There is plents of IDE's nowadays with suport for php besides zend studio. Eclipse, kdeveloper, etc etc
?????Code:gtk/gdk [ glade] perl, c, c++ languages only.
gtk can perfectly be used by php
Anyway, why php? It's easyer, more programatic, it has more handy functions and i am more confrotable with it than i ever been with any other language.
XUL requires the use of java or C/C++ ??? :( damn.
They can claim that they're a general-purpose language, but that doesn't make it right. PHP is heavily optimized for server-side processing. Sure, you can write client apps with it, but the simple requirement that every code file is wrapped by <%php ... %> should make it clear that this is, in fact, a use PHP was not originally intended for.Quote:
Originally Posted by PedroTuga
Except everyone I know who uses PHP. (And believe me, that's a lot of people.)Quote:
Nowadays nobody installs php as a server module,
Where'd you hear that?Quote:
that is actualy getting deprecated.
To executable code? Last I heard, the native PHP compiler was still highly experimental. The bytecode still needs the interpreter.Quote:
You can compile php code.
Not at all obviously. Java, C#, Python, they're all compiled and still need the virtual machine.Quote:
If you compile it the PHP itself ( the interpreter ) is no longer requiered, obviously.
Huh? PHP has been cross-platform for years.Quote:
You dont need to run it on a linux box.
What's that supposed to mean?Quote:
more programatic,
and no organization for them. I'd rather use Python.Quote:
it has more handy functions
That, at least, is a good reason.Quote:
and i am more confrotable with it than i ever been with any other language.
Nope, not really. If you have XULRunner, you can do most of your stuff in JavaScript.Quote:
XUL requires the use of java or C/C++ ??? :( damn.
Do you know a web server without PHP support? :rolleyes:Quote:
Nowadays nobody installs php as a server module,
Deprecated, but everyone does it.Quote:
that is actualy getting deprecated.
Which is not the point of it. (And as CornedBee said, it's still in beta testing and needs the interpreter).Quote:
You can compile php code.
>>Not at all obviously. Java, C#, Python, they're all compiled and still need the virtual machine.Quote:
If you compile it the PHP itself ( the interpreter ) is no longer requiered, obviously.
That's one reason why they're slow.
>>Huh? PHP has been cross-platform for years.Quote:
You dont need to run it on a linux box.
Yeah, it's running on my XP for two years by now.
Talk in English.Quote:
more programatic,
>>and no organization for them. I'd rather use Python.Quote:
it has more handy functions
Umm... organization? I just use the functions, what's the organization for? You'd prefer it to be more OOP?
>>That, at least, is a good reason.Quote:
and i am more confrotable with it than i ever been with any other language.
Sometimes I think it is too easy... but it's damn useful :)
Yes?
I've seen both Java and C# programs beat C++ programs.Quote:
Originally Posted by maxorator
But then, I've seen C++ programs totally blow away Java and C# programs.
It depends. In my experience there is more speed to be gained by good programming practices and experience in C++ than in the VM languages.
Python, now, is too dynamic to ever really contest the static languages. Although there are some extremely interesting advances in VM technology there, due to dynamic profiling and code rewriting. Virtual function calls, for example, can be faster in these languages than in C++ under some circumstances. (I would take careful profiling of many applications to find out how common these circumstances are.)
My choice is wxWidgets. I'm too lazy to explain...
How can Java or C# interpreter interpret the java code to machine code faster than C++, if C++ already is machine code?Quote:
I've seen both Java and C# programs beat C++ programs.
Err... C++ is not machine code. I think what CornedBee means is that it is not only the language and its interpreter/compiler/VM (etc) that counts, but also other factors such as the algorithms used (the choice and correct implementation of which comes from "good programming practices and experience"). Then there are certain optimisations that may be possible in such languages but which are less feasible in a language whose code is directly compiled to machine code, as was mentioned.Quote:
How can Java or C# interpreter interpret the java code to machine code faster than C++, if C++ already is machine code?
I'd wager that some operations can be made very efficient on a "static" VM environment when compared to native compilers ability to optimize code. An application that relies heavily on these calls will necessarily beat native code whith less than desirable optimizations.
Another thing is application usage as opposed to code performance. Most (I think) VMs use Just In Time compilation. This is an excellent time to compile. A lot more is known about the application state and optimization decisions, like function inlining for instance, can be more accurately made.
I mean if you compile a C++ program, then it is machine code.Quote:
How can Java or C# interpreter interpret the java code to machine code faster than C++, if C++ already is machine code?
AFAIK, assembly/binary is machine code. C and C++ have a runtime environment just like C# or Java. The difference is that C and C++ RMs are part of the OS.Quote:
I mean if you compile a C++ program, then it is machine code.
I could be quite wrong, but I thought I read something like that somewhere. I'll try and find a link.
C runtime doesn't do much. Only some functions like strcpy(), _beginthread and some other standard functions.
I don't think there's a special runtime for C++.
You are quite wrong. You are all quite wrong. (Muahahaha!)
First, the execution environment has nothing at all to do with the programming language. There are C interpreters. There's gcj, which compiles Java to native code. Whether a programming language is compiled or not is, unless the standard contains any requirements, solely a question of the implementation.
That said, C and C++ are typically compiled to native code. They don't have runtimes as in "code that is necessary to even make sense of the stuff that's there". The executables are essentially in the same format as the OS kernel - a bit of management stuff here or there which the loader takes care of, but after the loading, which is done once, it's just a matter of sending the code as-is to the CPU.
They do have runtimes in the sense of "libraries that just about every program uses and therefore must be present". Those are the C and C++ standard libraries.
Java and C#, on the other hand, are typically compiled to a bytecode that makes no sense to the CPU at all. A runtime environment, a virtual machine, is necessary to act as a bridge. The VM can be a bytecode interpreter, a JIT compiler, both, or perhaps something else we've not yet invented.
So that's how it works by default.
Now for the speed issue. It's an interesting observation that the Sun Java 5 Hotspot VM tends to execute code faster than native binaries produced by gcj. Now, gcj has not, AFAIK, been a very well-tended product. In other words, it's far from as efficient it could be. But the VM has a few advantages it makes good use of that have to do with the inherently greater dynamicity (not a word, I know) of byte code.
It does, at least in the real world of "common usage", as you noted with your "typically".Quote:
First, the execution environment has nothing at all to do with the programming language.
I agree with CornedBee :D
Those C runtime errors are programmed into the executable (I've seen them when disassembling some programs).
I was under the impression the conversation was revolving around speed issues concerning VM machines and C++ native code. Not between different Java implemenations.Quote:
Originally Posted by CornedBee
One native code isn't that different from another. They're all native.
No. They aren't that different. Just like my C++ code isn't much different than yours. However yours will beat the s... of mine any day :)
The question though was:
"How can Java or C# interpreter interpret the java code to machine code faster than C++, if C++ already is machine"
Since, as you pointed out, gcj isn't much of a compiler (to put it shortly), I don't see how that helps in the discussion.
@CornedBee: Thanks for clearing that up. :)
I'm not having a go. I'm just genuinely confused between what was being discussed and the answer given by CornedBee. That's all. I need help understanding it.
The discussion went from the OP wanting to use a toolkit with PHP, to how PHP is or isn't a general-purpose language, to how languages are compiled and interpreted, to VMs, to Java &C# vs C & C++.
CornedBee was explaining how C and C++ are compiled, and how VM languages are compiled.
At least that's what I've gotten from the thread.
OK, let's return to the question.
For example:Quote:
Originally Posted by maxorator
Dynamic profiling can lead to recompilation with different parameters, leading to a program that is more likely to assume the right thing. (Branch prediction!)
Garbage collection is, under some circumstances, preferable to deterministic memory management in terms of speed. Especially bad deterministic memory management. Look at it this way: in Java, memory management is done by Sun's garbage collector programmers. They're probably experts in the field. They know what they're doing. In C++, every programmer does his own memory management. That includes all the novices. Guess who's better at doing it.
Collecting garbage takes time, doesn't it?Quote:
Look at it this way: in Java, memory management is done by Sun's garbage collector programmers.
Ok.. this discussion is blowing in the wind.
i could reply to the posts in the first page sentence by sentence. But i didnt open this thread to discuss the diference betwin a VM and an interpreter. I mean, i could discuss that, but not on this thread. About php, everyone interested should read about the latest developments.
Just to give a short answer to a big mess: sorry mates, everybody uses the CGI nowadays and yes using php as an apache module is geting deprecated. Check you linux distro default instalation or all those all-in-one Windows-Apache-Mysql-Php packages.
But.. what about toolkits and widgets? I would like to see someone poiting the good and bad things about a specific one based on previous experiences.
I think you would be best served on a PHP specific board. Not doubting you will get an answer here (I believe you have already). But... this is kinda a group of forums oriented towards C based languages. The noise ratio can be considerable, as you just have witnessed, if the question doesn't pertain to the forums theme.
You've got some articles, blog posts, news updates or discussions to point me to? I did a bit of searching, but couldn't find anything except a note on how the CGI module is easier to set up securely due to chrooting and similar mechanisms.Quote:
Originally Posted by PedroTuga
Are you really trying to make me laugh? Or make yourself seem stupid?Quote:
Just to give a short answer to a big mess: sorry mates, everybody uses the CGI nowadays and yes using php as an apache module is geting deprecated.
Edit:
I looked through Estonian browser based games. 16 of 16 of them were using PHP.
The most common forum systems (vBulletin, phpBB and many other) are using PHP.
Then I looked for some international game sites (small flash games). And guess what! They're using PHP (or no filename extensions or ASP).
I didnt said it was easier - which it is - i said it's more used.Quote:
Originally Posted by CornedBee
A normal php instalation is not the apache module. Plus, other webservers have to use the CGI
Get an all in one LAMP or WAMP package
OR
google for lamp instalation instructions and follow them
OR
simply run phpinfo() in your hosting company and check it out.
maxorator: you should read what i wrote and check out if you know what i am talkling about before replying that way. If there is someone here making himself stupid is not me. No offense.
Now about the toolkits... ok.. damit, i only said i am using php in order to filter unavaluable solutions.
Which toolkit do you preffer and why?
In case you can and/or feel like it you can refer to some issues related to its usage with php.
Thank you
I don't consider them a reference.Quote:
Originally Posted by PedroTuga
I don't consider those a reference either. Just because something is easier (and actually, I know for a fact that setting up mod_php is easer than php cgi) doesn't mean it's better.Quote:
google for lamp instalation instructions and follow them
My hosting company is myself. Every server I have access to (5 servers right now, 3 of them administrated by me) uses mod_php.Quote:
simply run phpinfo() in your hosting company and check it out.
Haven't much experience with toolkits, but if you're going for PHP, your choice is limited anyway. As far as I know, Qt has no bindings for PHP, nor has wxWidgets, so basically you have GTK+. Not too bad a choice, but I'd prefer wxWidgets, personally.Quote:
Now about the toolkits... ok.. damit, i only said i am using php in order to filter unavaluable solutions.
Which toolkit do you preffer and why?
In case you can and/or feel like it you can refer to some issues related to its usage with php.
Thank you
I heard PHP has bindings for the WinAPI too, but that's obviously not a good choice.