C++ or C# for game creation

Sorry for the noob question but I've only just started C++ programming.

What I was wondering is what is the main language for programming commercial PC games?? I'm talking about the big ones such as DOOM or Quake, AoE and such. I'm interested in getting into the games industry later and I wan't to know whether they still use C++ or is C# taking over as the preferred language??

I realise that its going to be years before I can even think about building games like that but I was still curious as to where to begin.

Thanks in advance.

Doom, quake, AoE = C++

C# is comin on fast though, or at least it looks that way, i for one know nothing about C# though.

It doesn't really matter much. Unless you plan on making the next Quake or Unreal game, you don't really need anything super fast.

Well I havn't worked with it myself as of yet apperently mananged directx using c# is easer to use then directx with c++

well alot of languages are "easier to use" than C++, doesn't mean theyre better :D

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Originally Posted by Shamino

well alot of languages are "easier to use" than C++, doesn't mean theyre better :D

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There is no such thing as a "better" language. Each language is good in its own domain. For example, C++ sucks when it comes to making Windows apps quickly, a task much better fit for a language like C# or VB.

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Originally Posted by 7smurfs

For example, C++ sucks when it comes to making Windows apps quickly, a task much better fit for a language like C# or VB.

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So what is C++ good for?

Specifically interface programming, but definitely game programming.

If you're looking for a job at commercial programming C++ is the way to go. (Currently at least). I dont know enough about C# to comment on it though.

C++ doesnt take that long to make games though. (Simple ones at least)

C# is based in .NET framework, which means that it takes portability hits if you use it for, er, what it was meant to be used for. Whatever that is. Honestly, I don't think it's meant to supercede C++. I think it's meant to be an alternative to it for specific, .NET geared processes.

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It doesn't really matter much. Unless you plan on making the next Quake or Unreal game, you don't really need anything super fast.

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I couldn't disagree more. This statement is absurd. If that is true, hell just program your game in BASIC and chuck C/C++ out the window. After all I'm not coding Quake 5 here. :rolleyes:

C# IMHO is just MS's way of tapping into the Sun Microsystems cash flow for Java.

VB is a sad attempt at making a non-object oriented language.... object oriented.

MFC makes it easier key word: easier to make Windows apps in C++. And the difficulty of making Windows apps in C/C++ has nothing to do with the language. It has everything to do with Windows.

I say use C++ but what the hell do I know?

I recall playing some QBasic games. Sprite loading took awhile, and, er, they were generally pretty clunky. Dunno if this was limitations int he developers programming, or the langauge, but it seemed to be a common problem in a lot of the QB games I played.

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I couldn't disagree more. This statement is absurd. If that is true, hell just program your game in BASIC and chuck C/C++ out the window. After all I'm not coding Quake 5 here.

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Let me rephrase that: If you do not already know C++, and want to make a game yesterday, then using C++ would be inefficient. C# is good for beginners to make a nice quick game, or if the programmer doesn't have time necessary to programming in C++. There is nothing wrong with using C#, VB, or anything to create a game so long as it gets the job done effectively.

I would recommend C++, most of the Industrial games made today (if not nearly all of them :) ) are done in C++.

As for C# i know nothing about it other than what has already been mentioned (.NET framework, Sun Microsystems, Microsoft trying to take over...more(lol how'd that get in there?!))

I would suggest cruizing the forums, reading some internet tutorials and then picking which one you like. But i feel that C++ is more geared towards the tasks your looking for.

Once you pick get good BOOKS! They cost money yeah (Something i dont have a lot of lying around as i do this for a hobby, School is my job (for now) :( ) But books are invaluable. I personally think that books (non-fiction about any topic) are one of the greatest things in the world. If its in a book its usually thorough and correct (unless its outdated). The forums here are also another Invaluable asset as far as C++ goes. You can search the forums for some "Good Book" threads. Check Amazon.com too and read the reviews. Good luck!

If you are just thinking about games, then C++ is probably a decent place to start. As of current most of the games you see flying about are C++ based. MFC is good for more of application situations, that is, if you wanted to make a model viewer, or some sort of productivity app, the performance lost is generally minimal to the time invested in creating all dialogs and everything needed.

As has been said before if you are looking for performance (and much literature), for gaming C++ probably has the best to choose from. There's a fair amount of code, and articles going around that it would make sense to choose C++. Best of luck to you, its a hard field, but definately rewarding.

Ok this is the real deal about game programming. First of all you sound like you are interested in this endeavor for the long run, if this is true then C++ or C is a necessary. Commercial games require its speed and flexibility. It is true, C# is becoming very popular for applications that don’t require the most extreme degree of performance. it is also true that C# is nowhere near becoming even a consideration for large scale games. C# and Java are so popular because they have much more strict rules for how code has to be made; making it much harder to make mistakes, thereby increasing development time, but they just dont have what it takes for real games. So you might as well use the real deal if you are serious.

In the words of my professor: "C++ and C are like the wild west, there is an amazing amount of ways to make mistakes, but with training and practice you can create something truly amazing, and not to mention blazingly fast" - Dr. Sunil Prabhakar, Purdue University

Case Closed!

sorry for this dumb question... but i am a programming newbie.....i just started on C++ and have seen a bit of Python and C#...but let me get this straight....

C++ - good to create big industrial games...
C# - good for creating window applications...

Am i correct?
Cause i am interested in both window apps and game programs...which one is better to start off with etc...
Though i have covered the basics of C++

C# is definatly better for programming windows applications becouse it has many usefull libs that make the process go much faster. i would start with C++ becouse it is best to begin with your hands as close to the hardware as possible.

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C# is definatly better for programming windows applications becouse it has many usefull libs that make the process go much faster. i would start with C++ becouse it is best to begin with your hands as close to the hardware as possible.

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Yet more incorrect advice.

C++ does not get you closer to the hardware. Assembly language does. Yes C++ was designed to do anything that assembly can, but C++ is considered a higher level language.
I don't know exactly what level it is and most books disagree and frankly I think it's a moot (sorry Govtcheez for the earlier mute point) point.

Perhaps you folks might want to actually learn something about C++ before giving advice on it? The blanket statements I've seen on this board usually have little proof to back them up.

Ya know I really don't think anyone is trying to find a replacement for C++ as far as games go so why are we constantly talking about this ........? You are answering questions no one is asking. Use the right tool for the job.
Use C++ for your games. Period. I don't care if you use OpenGL, DX, WineX, Allegro (shudder), SDL (shudder), etc for graphics.

I think it's safe to say that Objective-C is the only programming language worth using for anything.

Anyway. What's wrong with SDL and Allegro (other than Allegro being older than dirt and limited use for modern programming)?

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I think it's safe to say that Objective-C is the only programming language worth using for anything.

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Arguing about languages, API's, etc, really gets us nowhere fast.

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Doom, quake, AoE = C++

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Wrong. Doom, Quake = C.

Allegro (IMO) is crap. SDL has it's place for portability but it's uses are small for commercial apps. Then again, Unreal Tournament 2004 uses SDL for it's linux port.

Honestly use what you want for games, eventually you will find what works best for you.

As for C# and MFC, both are decent at applications, however it has to be said again, use what makes sense to you. If you feel comfortable making everything in ASM, thats fine, but what works for you might not work for another. I recommended C/C++ just because of the sheer volume of information to be found. There is information for many different languages out there, use what makes sense, be it Ruby, C, C++, ASM, COBOL, Ada, or whatever. Untill you understand how to do things, its best to learn with what you know best.

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Originally Posted by Bubba

Ya know I really don't think anyone is trying to find a replacement for C++ as far as games go so why are we constantly talking about this ........?

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Hmmm Bubba, who was talking about replacing C++? This thread was simply a new programmer asking if C# or C++ is industry standard for games.

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Originally Posted by Bubba

The blanket statements I've seen on this board usually have little proof to back them up.

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umm the statement

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Originally Posted by Bubba

Use C++ for your games. Period

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Could not possibly be less backed up, nor dose it help the asker at all. Yes it dose give them the awnser, but why the awnser is the awnser is always the more important part of any question. If i were to go up to my physics teacher and ask why i do a certain step in a problem and he bellowed, BECOUSE THATS HOW! That would not really help me would it.

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Originally Posted by Bubba

Perhaps you folks might want to actually learn something about C++ before giving advice on it?

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First off, people that try to give advice usually do know a great deal about the subject, so not only is your statement wrong but it is also completely retarded. Let me explain about the retarded part. When someone gives another advice, they do so by using information that they hold to be true. If it just so happens that they are not right and somebody brings that to attention and then gives the correct answer, every body benefits. It helps solidify the knowledge of those who knew the right awnser and gives all those who did not know the right awnser the awnser. Have you forgotten that this board is for learning? People with attitudes like that reflected in your post suppress the very reasion we are all here, to learn. People should be encouraged to post, not be to scared to say something in fear of being made fun of.
when i said

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Originally Posted by loopshot

C# is definatly better for programming windows applications becouse it has many usefull libs that make the process go much faster. i would start with C++ becouse it is best to begin with your hands as close to the hardware as possible.

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you said

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Originally Posted by Bubba

Yet more incorrect advice. C++ does not get you closer to the hardware. Assembly language does.

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and then you attacked me for my statement
I would not say that this awnser is incorrect. Programms in languages like C# and Java are built with tons and tons of stuff already given to the coder. So much that in these languages you tend to make software with a thicker layer of software. In C++ you are given very little, almost forcing the programmer to create software with the most basic componets of High Level languages, ie things like statements and ect. So in C++ you are mainly using things that where made specifically to represent assembly code and in C# and Java you are using software made with these componets to make more software, there by making C++ closer to the hardware. Essentially both are doing around the same thing, but C++ is still lower there by making it closer to the hardware. Bubba there are different levels of High Levels Languages. Even though you attacked me and others you still gave advice and i thank you for it and in return i have given mine, and so goes on the cycle of learning.

Stick around here for awhile and you will soon see why my response was warranted.

You begin to quickly notice a 'pattern' in the posts.

It is extremely hard to learn from those who know just as much or less than you.
Threads like this are not for game programming. They are to start useless debates which no one cares about.

You really think the posters of these 'Please tell me how to make a game in one paragraph or less' are really ever going to succeed? Asking about books, etc. I feel like saying no you are screwed. There are no books, no tutorials, no compilers, and nothing out there to help you.

So just look at some of these questions. Is C++ good for game creation. My God people go buy a game magazing or something and answer it for yourself. Or at least google it.
When I came here I knew next to nothing about programming in C, Direct3D, or assembly. But I assure you I did NOT learn those by asking assinine blanket questions like this. And we don't care if you use some new language called F++ or Lazy++. The point is this is a game programming board to help with game programming problems. We are not the all knowing Wizard of Oz who can guide you and direct you every step along the way.

At no time did I ask this:

'I'm new to programming and I'd like to ask the senior members of the board how to program <insert item>.'

They would have flamed me and rightly so. Does it take a rocket scientist to really figure out that games are coded in C++ and engines moreso in pure C than anything? This board is NOT to disseminate enough information in one post to go make your own game. Can't be done.

What we CAN do is help with possible pitfalls and problems along the way that either myself or someone else ran into and found the solution for. That's learning. One person having a desire and commitment to learn using the resources he or she has been provided. Asking for spoon-fed answers:

A. Does not help the forum.
B. Annoys the hell out of us
C. Shows the OP is lazy and or cannot use a search engine
D. Ultimately will not help the OP since spoon-feeding does not equal learning.

There has been a very good FAQ written on how to write good questions and I think a lot of new members would benefit by reading it. Sometimes its not the question that is wrong, but more how it is presented and worded.

We are here to help, but we are not here to do it for you nor are we here to debate every aspect of every language to no end. So pick your poison and code. If you find the language isn't working with you then switch. Simple.

And this question is also stupid because I know gamers in the gaming community who know very well their games are coded in C/C++ yet could care less about programming. so if they know the answer to this question, don't ya think it's kind of stupid to ask it on a C/C++ forum?

Yes I will agree with you on that point, some questions are not appropriate, and I will also admit that this example was probably not the best one for my reaction to your anger at the Asker. But you never addressed the main point of my argument. That was that you should not flame people for giving advice that is wrong. I thought I explained this quite thoroughly and I stand by it. There was no reason for you to make the remarks about my post the way you did for two reasons. One it was not wrong, we where just looking at it in different ways, I probably could have said it in a clear way but I still stand by it. And two was explained in my argument about giving wrong advice, it is a good thing if caught.