Theories invited.

My newest machine has started to play up in a new manner, ideas invited.

It is about 18 months old and has always had the odd BSOD stop, but this is new. Running a fully patched XP.

Yesterday I started to install Visual Studio .NET on the machine, (and anyone who says it is a MS problem will just get ignored!). A couple of minutes into the first disk, the machine froze, I was unable to do anything other then press the button. I tried again, the same thing happened, although not on te same file. Trying about 6 times, it never got passed the first disk. Always, just before the system froze, there was a "pop" noise, for want of a better description, sounded like it was the disk drive, (MAXTOR 6L040J2). There is nothing being written to the system log files.

I figured the disk may be crapping out so I booted into Caldera and ran the Maxtor PowerMax disk diagnostics. Perfect, I did the heavy test which really excercises the disk and the controller, again, no problems.

I tried the install again, same problem. I tried it again, but this time, instead of using the CD writer, I used the DVD drive which is slower. This time it installed and got part way through the MSDN install before it did the same thing. Anyway, since then, the machine has frozen a couple of times without provocation.

I believe the mainboard is still alive as there is periodic activity on the disk LED as if it is trying to talk to it, but Ctrl-Alt-Del doesn't work.

Suggestions?

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had the odd BSOD stop

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well, BSODs are usually caused by memory errors, both physical and Windows caused. I would check out the computer with a different stick of memory, as memory problems also cause freezes(if it were the cpu, it would probably just crash the program to desktop).

I'd suggest a memory tester.
http://www.memtest.org/
http://www.simmtester.com/page/products/doc/docinfo.asp

I have that memtest86 already, it is not showing any errors. I have tried most of the obvious things, it is a case of if I try to write down everything I've done, the post would be so long, nobody would read it!

Might it be the newly patched OS conflicting with the install? What patches have you applied recently?

are you sure the CD you are using does not have any corrupted file or anytin like that..

run a test on your processor...heavy installs like that might be putting full load on the processor, causing it to fault.

>>a "pop" noise
Are you sure it was a 'pop' and not a very short high-pitched beep from the internal speaker?

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Originally Posted by adrianxw

I believe the mainboard is still alive as there is periodic activity on the disk LED as if it is trying to talk to it, but Ctrl-Alt-Del doesn't work.

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what state is your system in? is it working, or just frozen on a BSOD or what?

>>> What patches have you applied recently?

There were a few, 4 I think, security patches a couple of weeks ago.

>>> you sure the CD you are using does not have any corrupted file

Whilst you can never be absolutely sure, the fact that it always stopped in different places, the fact that the disks are brand new, (just opened the box), and MS authentic disks would tend me to think that was not the case.

>>> ...heavy installs like that might be putting full load on the processor

The processor is pretty much 100% busy all the time. I run SETI@Home which is a true test of any CPU. Has been running for more then a year. What I did wonder about was the amount of load that a heavy install puts on the chipset rather then the CPU. There is no active cooling on the chipset. The fact that the install from the very much slower DVD drive worked made me wonder.

>>> Are you sure it was a 'pop' and not a very short high-pitched beep from the internal speaker?

Quite sure. I hear the same noise when the machine is going through the power down sequence. (The disk does not have power savings enabled).

>>> what state is your system in? is it working, or just frozen on a BSOD or what?

No BSOD. It just seems to stop, I can for a short period, move the mouse cursor around but can't open/close/do anything. After a while the mouse pointer stops. Ctrl-Alt-Del doesn't do anything.

You may want to try, using some software like Alcohol 120% (I think they have a free trial), to make images of those disks and install from there, and it may put less strain on the IDE bus, and therefore on the chipset.

maybe your kernel image got damaged somehow....or some other important file could have been damaged by one of the security patches, causing it to fault for some reason when a certain process is being run during the install?? Try reinstalling windows and then going back through the patches again later. See if it works before the patches that is.

Well that popping sound doesn't sound at all good...

Sure it wasn't just your speakers?

I would stop running so much on that comp of yours..and then try to install it :)
I wouldn't see how you could run so much as to completely overload the chipset..o.o, thats a bit odd..

>>> Sure it wasn't just your speakers?

I am quite certain it is not the speakers. the sound comes from the hard drive. It sounds like the heads being pulled out. I hear the same noise towards the end of the power down cycle, and when the machine is frozen, the first thing that happens when I press the button is the "pop" sound.

is there any way you can record this sound and upload it?

Well the easiest way to tell would be to disconnect the hard drive and boot up, see if it happens.

Wow..never seen anything like that before or heard

Tried scandisc I take it? What'd you get for results?

I don't have a mike, so can't record it. Scandisk is fine. I also downloaded a special disk diagnostic/exerciser from Maxtor, called PowerMax which I have run several times, always it says "congratulations - your drive is certified".

Today, I got a BSOD, stop code 8E. I was sitting at the machine when it happened. It dumped memory into its file, and just as it finished, the disk drive went "pop". It almost sounds as if it is powering down, or yanking the heads out, definitely a mechanical kind of sound.

have you tried disconnecting the drive and booting like I said to see if the drive is really the problem?

>>> have you tried disconnecting the drive and booting like I said to see if the drive is really the problem?

I don't have any scheduled downtime until Sunday, so no, I haven't.

d00de..maxor lies!! o.o

cr8zy man..I seriously have no clue..don't have access to the machine so <_< blah.

>>d00de..maxor lies!! o.o
>>cr8zy man..I seriously have no clue..don't have access to the machine so <_< blah.

wow...that helped a lot :rolleyes:

I removed the disk and booted from the XP CD, upon shutdown, when the pop usually happens - it did not. Therefore I am now absolutely certain, the sound comes from the disk drive and not the speaker. I assume that is what you were getting at.

The machine hasn't actually crashed today yet.

Something I've noticed is that when it freezes, the "disk activity" light is hard on. I'm not sure that is the case when I get the BSOD's. The light is controlled by the motherboard, not the disk of course.

perhaps the ide controller is going bad...causing the drive to jump quickly to home when shutting down?? do you have a spare pci ide controller around to test that theory?

No, I don't. Most of the freezes/crashes are happening during periods of intense disk activity. This morning, it crashed whilst NAV was doing it's sceduled scan, browsing the NAV log, it seems that this is not the first time, (NAV posts the scan started message, but never gets to the scan finished).

This morning, it froze while I was browsing here. Seti@Home was running, so the CPU was flat out, but the peripheral system was really pretty quiet. This is a maddening problem.

that's just really strange, the only thing I can think of trying is perhaps using a spare computer, putting that hard drive in it and seeing if the problem happens there. If not, then you can rule out the hard drive and blame something else...but that popping noise just confuses me. Is this computer critical? Ie: is it a server?

It is the only system I currently have which is spec'd high enough to run XP, (2.533 GHz P4). It is my local and internet server, it's principle purpose. I also have Visual Studio .NET on it but I a m not using that very much, (current projects are all in VS 6 which runs on another machine).

I have been considering flashing the BIOS, on Sunday, I ripped it open because the BIOS download site said I had to get the mobo rev number, damned if I could find it though. It is not where the BIOS page says it should be. I have been sent a photograph of a mobo of "the same" type, however, it shows the model number in a quite different place to the number on my board. Frustrated at every turn!

I'd get a new drive, but if the I/O system is overloaded with one almost empty, (it's got XP on it - did I say empty), drive, I can't see how adding a drive can help. If the drive is crapped, why does everything tell me it's perfect, that PowerMax software takes about 30 minutes to do it's checks, and is booted from a floppy, so there shouldn't be areas on the disk it can't look at. At the same time, it is really thrashing the drive, and hence the I/O subsystem as well and it works fine!!!

I guess I could get a new mobo, a better one at that. I don't know.

well maybe there's something wrong with windows....exactly how loud is this pop? Could it be caused by windows seeking somewhere on the drive that's off in la la land, causing the drive to do a "hard stop" of sorts? I really don't know the in's and out's of how xp accesses hardware so I dont know if that's a possibility, maybe you should do a backup and run a system restore/reinstall or whatever then apply all the patches again. Maybe something got harshed in windows....beats me, there's not much I can do not having the thing in front of me ya know?

Has anyone suggested replacing the drive and seeing if the problem persists? Even if your CPUs and whatnot on the other computers is too slow for XP, I'm sure the harddrive could be swapped.

**EDIT
Hmm interesting, my suggestion was the exact inverse of Waldo's, but with the exact same effect :D

I would back everything up, try to wipe the drive, and go with a clean install of XP, then see if the pop still happens... if so, wipe it again and install another OS and see if it still happens...

it'd be quicker to do what hunter and I said and put it into another computer, boot off knoppix or something, do some stuff and see if it happens again.

This morning, as it moderately common, I awoke to find it frozen with the disk light hard on. I poked the button as per normal and it came up with

Unable to start Windows.
<WINDOWS ROOT>\System32\ntoskrnl.exe missing or corrupted.
Please re-install or repair the file.

Powered the thing down, waited 10 seconds, now running again fine without further action.

>>> exactly how loud is this pop?

Now I'm sensitised to it, it is quite obvious. Not "hear it across the room" loud, but quite obvious sitting anywhere near the machine. Not loud enough so that it was screamingly obvious when the problem first appeared, although I doubt it has got worse, as I said, once it has been noticed - it is more noticeable.

I can make the system pop without Windows there. If I boot into Caldera DOS from a floppy, and power the thing off, the pop is the last thing it does before all the lights go down. I thus believe the sound is a routine part of the disk's operation, but do not know why it would choose to do this while running the OS.

I'll see if I can swap some disks about.

>>> not having the thing in front of me ya know?

Now there is a problem I do undrstand!

I was going to suggest that, but then you wouldn't be running the OS off the drive in question.

Update.

I discovered a site which deals with hardware troubles, Someone had an AMD version of the board, which had very similar problems. The key was the SiS 645 chipset was overheating because the heatsink was not well thermally bonded to the chip, it used double sided tape.

To test this, I dropped my chipset clock rates from (CPU/DRAM) 133/166 which is what it should be to 100/100 - now, of course I am underclocking the CPU and the memory, BUT, low and behold, it has run faultlessly.

So today, I removed the heatsink, taped, cleaned it and the chip up, smeared the chip with Arctic Silver and superglued the heatsink firmly to the chip. I have set the clocks up again so over the next few days, I'll find out if this was indeed the cause.

I find it hard to believe a mobo manufacturer would stick a heatsink on in that manner.

Before, perhaps 1 full Norton AntiVirus scan in 10 would run to completion, have just finished the 4th without incident...

Have set up NAV to repeat scan overnight. Fingers crossed.

I hear that prime95 program is good for heat testing

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Originally Posted by adrianxw

I have been considering flashing the BIOS, on Sunday, I ripped it open because the BIOS download site said I had to get the mobo rev number, damned if I could find it though. It is not where the BIOS page says it should be. I have been sent a photograph of a mobo of "the same" type, however, it shows the model number in a quite different place to the number on my board. Frustrated at every turn!

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Sounds like you might have fixed things, but you could try this :Motherboard Identification Forum
I don't know if it's of any use here, but it's always good to know what board you've got.

1) spray with gasoline
2) light it up
3) enjoy the show
4) bring some marshmellows over, i hear they get a good taste from burning mainboards.

100% Software problem. period.

Machine has run perfectly after motherboard modification.

Next time you get a strange HD noise try here http://www.hitachigst.com/hddt/knowt...c?OpenDocument

Don't ask how I found it :)

Doesn't sound like any of those I'm glad to say. I still hear the noise, but now, only when shutting the machine down. Despite me deliberately running tasks that caused the problem before, again and again, the system has been quite stable since the mod.

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overheating because the heatsink was not well thermally bonded to the chip, it used double sided tape

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just like AMD, using cheap thermal tape. Did you replace it with some article silver or some other thermal paste?

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Originally Posted by EvBladeRunnervE

just like AMD, using cheap thermal tape. Did you replace it with some article silver or some other thermal paste?

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Wow... maybe you should read what he said. :rolleyes: He also said that it was a friend who had the AMD board... I don't recall him having an AMD board in this case. And AMD does not use cheap materials... stop spreading lies.

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Posted by adrianxw @ 05-31-2004, 07:08 AM
So today, I removed the heatsink, taped, cleaned it and the chip up, smeared the chip with Arctic Silver and superglued the heatsink firmly to the chip. I have set the clocks up again so over the next few days, I'll find out if this was indeed the cause.

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Posted by EvBladeRunnervE @ Today, 09:11 AM
Did you replace it with some article silver or some other thermal paste?

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Reading is good m'kay :)

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He also said that it was a friend who had the AMD board... I don't recall him having an AMD board in this case

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and I quote:

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, Someone had an AMD version of the board, which had very similar problems. The key was the SiS 645 chipset

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as far as I know, chipsets are Intel or AMD not both, unless he is saying his does not have the SIS645.

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And AMD does not use cheap materials... stop spreading lies.

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well, there is a reason why when most people buy AMD, they buy it OEM without heatsink, while Intel P4s run just find with their thermal pad(up to around 3.4 ghrz anyway). . . also, I am pointing out one weakness, their thermal medium/HSF combo that they use, otherwise I cant say they use cheap components cause as far as I know silicon wafers all have the same cost per size.

AMD tends to require more $$$ to produce a part because of the lack of facilities and tends to markup < than Intel, the quality of the two companies chips are equal. Basically, I am sick of people who take one comment and take it as a flame against their precious AMD <-- now this would be a flame, or atleast a taunt.

hey, retard, it's SIS's fault for not allowing the heatsink to sit on top of the processor properly, the heat compound that was on there originally would have worked just fine otherwise.

Oh dear :rolleyes:

The board was built by ECS. They produce some boards which support AMD processors and different ones that support Intel processors. Neither Intel nor AMD have any control over how ECS build their boards.

Similaly, the North and Southbridge chipsets are built, in my case, by SiS, who, in exactly the same way, have no control over how the chip is used.

It was ECS that chose to use the SiS 645 on their board, and it was ECS that chose to stick the cheerfully yellow anodised with resplendent black lettering "ECS" on it, with sticky tape.

The fact that both AMD and Intel versions of the board have the same problem, and the problem is with the chipset cooling, not the processor totally refutes any suggestion that this is an AMD versus Intel argument.

sorry guys for my comments. . .

I am surprised that you are having problems with ECS; however, as they used to be pretty good for the low-mid range motherboards, guess they went downhill. Basically, I am at the point that I wish there would be stricter standards on manufacturers as I have had quite a bit of problems with cheap components recently(MSI and AMD were the problems in this case).

anyway, glad to see you have solved your problem Adrian.