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In the university I am now with scholarship, I deserve 1000 free prints. Have done 200, so 800 are still there for me. But the scholarship ends in ten days and I am going back to my home university (which I am looking forward to :D ).
The question : Any idea what to print?
There was this student who printed a pirated copy of what appeared to be the last book of the Harry Potter series when I was in my final year. I know because some of my fellow TAs were using the line printer late at night to print students' code for marking when they found that someone else had beaten them to it.
"John Dies at the End"
"This Book is Full of Spiders"
You can probably get them both.
Soma
Any chance of them having 3D printers ? :-D
Print one page with a certification that you helped a tree by saving 799 pages.
Even if I stop printing for my rest of my life, are you aware of how much paper a university/big company wastes per year? Think about it and then tell me that I am responsible for what is happening with the trees!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario F.
On the other hand, we must all have an environmental concern! But letting this free prints slip away is not the solution I guess. The solution is to not use sources, when you don't actually need them. That's why I am asking. If I found something interested, I am going to use them, if not, I won't.
@indian guy : They are normal printers and they don't allow color prints
@Soma : You really like David Wong
@Laserlight : Harry potter is not my taste at all. I actually wonder how the masses loved that story? Good marketing I guess... Or just masses!
Maybe someone can suggest a scientific book or something? :D
What sort of things have you printed so far?
Is this 800 sheets of paper, or 800 printed works (of whatever number of pages)
If you're going to end up with 1000 printed volumes, have you considered the cost of shipping the whole lot back home?
I have thought of it. I will carry it with myself, since I am going home ( :D :D :D ) on 1st of Feb.
I have 800 papers. No more.
I have printed about 50 for needs of the courses and 150 for the notes of the ip of my university, so I can give them to my brother starts this year.
The Demon-Haunted WorldQuote:
Maybe someone can suggest a scientific book or something?
A Brief History of Time
The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution
The first one really reminds me the great Greek philosophers. It is for sure a candidate.
//tnx
I agree with Mario F. Anything I needlessly print out eventually ends up in the trash anyway.
BTW, printing entire works are usually copyright violations.
Why not sell the unused prints? It may or may not be worth your time, esp if you have to be present to use the prints.
I'm not sold on the whole environmental issue, so that kinda falls on deaf years. But if you are, that sounds exactly like you are part of the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by std10093
if you ensure that it's all printed on recycled paper, you'll still have a lower net impact on the problem.
I'm certainly not an environmental zealot, but I do believe in prudent and responsible use of resources. we can't prevent all forest fires, especially those caused by lightning strikes. we can't prevent volcanic eruptions, and we can't prevent earthquakes from releasing clouds of hydrocarbon gases. What we can do is drive less, sign up for paperless billing, recycle, and eat fresh, organic food grown/raised by more responsible farming techniques.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario F.
I don't advocate an immediate end to internal combustion engines, or mandatory conversion of every home to solar power. forcing those things would certainly bring our global economy to a screeching halt, and likely incur massive debt for all but the wealthiest of individuals. I am in favor of granting tax relief for people who choose alternative/clean energy.
The paper is said to be a recycled one.
I don't think I can sell them, since my ID will expire in the university I am now (I am on scholarship and in ten days I go back home, so my profile here will be deleted I guess).
As I said though, if I don't find something interested enough, I won't print.
PS - I know that I recycle at the maximum ratio a man can.
And you mean by everyone, right? "Oh, let's save the planet but let me spend these 800 printing credits first" it's the type of hypocrisy environmentalists are know for. Note I'm not calling the OP an hypocrit (yet). He didn't express his environmentalist concerns one way or another.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elkvis
And it goes down to your computers, cellphones, a whole lot of technology, even clothes and many of our eating habits. Saving the Planet is really as much an effort of trying to tackle with production and energy consumption, as it is of changing our consumer habits. Possibly the former isn't possible without the latter.
Sure. Tax relief for the wealthy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elkvis
Ah, that should make it better then. It's a bit like it's ok to kill cows in mass if you breed them.Quote:
Originally Posted by std10093
PS: Look, I'm being a bit of a jerk. I'll stop. You won't hear about it from me again. Continue with your, er, thread. It's was just bad timing, I was having this exact discussion on a dinner table last night and dinner was cut short exactly because I couldn't cope how some people are about this whole environmental issue. And of course... you can imagine whose fault was that dinner was cut short. Thankfully I have very sensitive taste buds and can't appreciate my food around hypocrites. I wasn't moved by the guilt trip imposed on me.
Attachment 12460
I prefer not to :)
You know what you could do, print a book on papercraft and then steal the paper you didn't print on for practice. Meta.
Print 800 empty pages - Take the empty pages home and use the paper for your printer.
What is all this kerfuffle about?
The OP didn't say that they had a resource to waste, and ask the best way to waste that resource.
They said they had an opportunity to get information and asked our opinions about the best kind of information to get.
I'm as much for the environment as those arguing against this post - but seriously, aren't these arguments a bit much?
It's as if someone posted, asking, "I have an Amazon gift card, what are some good books I should consider getting?" Would people get all crazy about the environment in that case?
Refusing to print something in order to "save a few trees" is a logical fallacy. Paper is not "made to order," and just refusing to print something does not mean that the paper manufacturers will call the lumberjacks and tell them to cut down one less tree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
Sure, it's possible to affect change by reaching out to the right people through the appropriate channels, but this argument on this forum is hardly going to do any good to the movement.
According to this logic, anyone who wants to buy a physical book is "contributing to the problem." How fair is that? Especially considering your thread:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario F.
... Or ... is this just another Cprogramming debate without meaning?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario F.
In that case, count me in :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Matticus
Of course it isn't!Quote:
Originally Posted by Matticus
You can buy second hand. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Matticus
You countered my assertion, but did not offer any counter-arguments to the statements I made immediately following that sentence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Subsonics
Quote: "Paper is not "made to order," and just refusing to print something does not mean that the paper manufacturers will call the lumberjacks and tell them to cut down one less tree.
Here, the fallacy would be that a < 0.000001 percent consumer would have an effect on the overall paper industry, as described above.
Okay, how's this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Subsonics;
I'm glad you didn't bring up the e-book [bleh] thing ... people are always uncomfortable when I point out that much of the electricity we use is generated from oil.Quote:
According to this logic, anyone who wants to buy a new physical book is "contributing to the problem."
:pQuote:
:D
I know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matticus
Paper is made to order, the paper industry produce in amounts that are in proportion to the demand. The demand is coming from a group of individuals, each buying and using paper.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matticus
Your argument is, in fact the fallacy, your claim is that a particular individual has no impact in a group of other individuals exactly like it.
Let's forget about the environment, because the environment is not really what we are talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matticus
Where is that? I live in Australia, where most of our electricity is produced by coal.Quote:
that most of the electricity we use is generated from oil.
We are a fairly dumb species in some ways, aren't we...
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
Sucker! :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Matticus
That would be a very poor business plan for large commercial paper manufacturers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Subsonics
Paper manufacturers are subject to supply and demand (which is different than "made to order"), but it's not as simple as a 1 to 1 translation. They do not take every single paper order and make that much paper for the week. Instead, they use complex formulae based on previous quantities and expected quantities to arrive at a general target product level. The trick is to avoid making too much paper (more inventory counts against the company's assets) and too little paper (obviously they want to satisfy orders).Quote:
Originally Posted by wikipedia
That was not my claim. If I had to use your wording, though, I would fix it like this: "a particular individual has negligible impact in a massive [in the millions] group of other individuals exactly like it."Quote:
Originally Posted by Subsonics
Of course, but if the world suddenly, say, halved it's paper consumption would less paper be made, and consequently less trees be cut down?Quote:
Originally Posted by Matticus
The thing is, it's not negligible since the group of similar individuals are in the millions. If one person cross a lawn, nothing happens, if thousands of others follows, a path appears, who is responsible for the path?Quote:
Originally Posted by Matticus
Your answer: nobody,
my answer: everybody.
Other examples can be made, of say responsibilities in large organizations, or a concept like voting.
26 posts. Not even the half of them are direct answers. And almost all (if not all of the users) that answered are experienced ones. I would like to thank the people that answered as they should do and especially Matticus.
And as a matter of fact, as a president of the students for many years, I have organized many reforestation and recycling activities (most of them firstly organized by me, especially after the big fire in Mt. Immitos ) (you see that on my CV too).
My mother, a teacher, has been for years organizing activities for cleaning beaches and the sea, in association with Helmepa and still does.
My brother, continued the environmental activities when he became the president.
The point is not to make comments on internet, but really to do something for the environment. I prefer talking with actions, so I stop here.
Cut the crap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matticus
According to those environmentalists, it's these millions plus the industries that serve them that are ruining our oh-so-fragile planet. This makes every single individual as responsible as everyone else. Which results in that single individual actions to be either for or against the planet.
The problem is one of simple logic.
* I shall not profess Save The Planet ideology if I don't give the example.
* I shall not profess Save The Planet ideology, if I believe it's someone else's concern, not mine.
* I shall not profess Save The Planet ideology, if I'm not ready to change my consumer habits.
Everything else is open hypocrisy or, worse, laziness. Believing that my impact is so negligible that it won't matter what I do is both.
Yeah. Let us know when you use up those credits, action man.Quote:
Originally Posted by std10093
Poor guy... I do not do them to state them off, I am doing them because they feel right.
I don't disagree with that in the slightest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario F.
I feel my point is either not understood, or is being argued for argument sake.
Let's say there are 10,000 people stranded on a tropical island. The island has one million coconuts (disregarding, for the sake of argument, the growth of new coconuts). Each person uses up one coconut a day. That would mean that the coconuts would only last one hundred days.
Now let's say one of those people realizes that the coconuts are a scarce resource, and decides not to partake. In that instance, the coconuts would last 100.01 days (or 100 days, plus fifteen minutes).
In this example, while there is clearly a difference, the effects of a single individual are, in my opinion, negligible to the overall conservation of that resource.
That was the point I made.
---------
I never said that the effects of a single individual "didn't matter," because that's not true and I don't believe that.
It's important to get more people on board with conserving natural resources, and the benefits to our environment would improve.
But that has nothing to do with the technical point I made that was apparently misunderstood.
---------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario F.
You have an interesting approach to discussions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario F.
Maybe that was not your point, but you didn't state it in terms that was explicitly reserved for 1 individual but as a general case, i.e it would apply to any individual i.e the entire group. Further, ending it with claiming that it's a logical fallacy really opens up for arguments for arguments sake.
Quote:
Refusing to print something in order to "save a few trees" is a logical
fallacy.
The OP is a single individual, and it was to them that the initial criticisms were made. Hence, it should have been implied that I was speaking about a single person. If I were extrapolating it to a more general case, then I would have been explicit in mentioning so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Subsonics
This, too, is a fallacy. But rather than entering into another circular debate confounded with semantical hoo-doo, I'll leave this as an exercise to the readers. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Subsonics
Claiming a fallacy wrongly is a fallacy because that can be construed as a strawman argument. You dispose of what the person actually said using some rhetorical problem as an excuse and keep going with your own argument. I think Subsonics's right though, since unless you do a lot of arguing you're liable to forget some of the problems you can call people out on; it's far more convincing to have a point of your own. Arguing for the sake of arguing has a word, too. It's called being eristic, but that's not a fallacy.
I think this has ventured a bit off topic. The OP asked about what we thought he should print, and it became an environmental debate, followed by a debate on debate techniques.
True.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elkvis
Recursion!! I wonder which is the termination condition to all these recursive calls :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Elkvis
the next stage is to start debating about what the debate is about.Quote:
Originally Posted by std10093
My initial assertion of a fallacy was based on a summary of the arguments against the OP, so I don't know that I'd call it a strawman argument - but now that you mention it, it does seem to be bad form. Criticism accepted.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteflags
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@std10093 - Do you have any specific areas of scientific interest? Perhaps you'd get better answers if you narrowed down the subject matter you're interested in.
Another suggestion would be Dan Dennett - he's not a scientist, but a scientific philosopher who is well respected in scientific circles. He's big into the mind and consciousness. In the interest of paper, you can find a lot of his talks on youtube (his books are quite a heavy read).
Just so that we're absolutely clear, I wasn't trying to accuse you of anything. In the post above mine you issued a challenge to the reader and I was just trying my best at your exercise. I'm still not quite sure of myself either. I've only ever heard of what I wrote down and I don't have any debate team experience or anything, either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matticus
You suggested already some really good books. Also the input of some other members where of great value (Salem's, Laserlight's, Click_here's and some other). I think that the thread is ok to be closed now. I hope, that some people also should learn that they should twice before answering to a thread, just to pretend they are smart.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matticus
I am smart. I don't need to pretend. In any case, you fully admit you got good advise. So that's that, as far as your hopes and wishes are concerned for this thread, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by std10093
So, let's discuss the environment now... EDIT: or dialectic. That would do too.
Good for you.
Yes, I did.
I 'd rather implement the sieve of Eratosthenes right now. I am pretty excited about it.
Moreover, I believe that these kind of conversations are better to be done live.
But, if someone wants to talk about it, then it is ok for me. (I am just not going to follow).
Yes, but your example only work as a thought experiment because you would need to give exclusive rights for 1 person and have the ability to enforce it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matticus
Who are those people, and what is your proof that the motivation is to pretend anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by std10093
Actually it is one. But he informed us that he is clever. I thought it was obvious to whom I was "speaking" :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Subsonics
Have you thought about getting obsessed and making 800 paper aeroplanes each meticulously designed in its own custom colours to the point where you flunk your course and exams, fall out with the family and the girlfriend, infact loose it all and end up on the streets where you end up boring passers by with drunken tales of how you once had the biggest airforce in the world 'on paper' , and use chalk to write ingenious c programs on walls until the day some university hot shot professor walking by realises you must be some kind of undiscovered computer whiz-kid and wonders why you are on the streets and when you tell your sorry tale tells you he will see what he can do to help, and so for a few days you sleep with a little hope in your heart despite the rain, until a couple of weeks later turning a corner you see the professor begging on the streets with a sign round his neck saying "Beware the paper planes".
A Walter B Krondyke production starring
Matt Damon as the student
Dustin Hoffman as the professor
Featuring special guest appearance by Gary Oldman as a paper plane.