Printable View
Hello forumers,
I am new to C programming. It has just been a month in learning C. I used to program a lot in VB. It seems that even for one simple program a longer c code is needed than it would be in Visual Basic.
Can anyone give me the advantages and to what area the c programming can be applied considering only the basics of C that I have learnt?
Well, you could start with Operating Systems... Windows, Linux, BSD... all written in C.
Next you can look at compilers... C (of course), C++, C#, Visual Basic, etc. all written in C.
Then of course there are major applications... MS Office, Star Office, Web Browsers, Inventory, Accounting, etc... again written in C
Add to that all the server code, network management... you name it, C can do it.
Moreover, I doubt that for programs of reasonable complexity VB is any more compact than C... I've seen lots of VB source code in my day and I'd have to suggest that most often it's a lot more verbose and longer than C source code.
Oh thank you. I generally used to program with windows application but to make the same in C/C++ you have to do a lot of stuffs. Registering a class, creating a handle and then creating a window.
I just want to ask how would a beginner start of with? What should I choose to make as a starter in C programming?
Thank you!
You're acting like every programmer takes a beaten path to a career. I'm willing to bet most careers aren't like that.
But since you asked the question, have you thought of any problem you can solve with computers? If so, go do it. Practicing and pushing boundaries is really important. For one thing, you find out if you really like programming enough to do it every day for work.
Thank you for the heads up. But really I cant find anything to do even programming interests me a lot. I will be willing to do something if I get benefit out of it. And pushing the boundaries require quite a lot of time.
Well, in the mean time, I am just getting to know about linux. Will this benefit me?
That depends. If the computer is just a tool to you -- something you use to accomplish a task, such as programming software, so that you can make money to pay bills -- and you are already comfortable in an environment like windows -- and you figure the significant programming you do is MS specific -- and you are not interested in history or the WWW -- I think linux will just be a sidetrack.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swoorup
But if the computer is also a bit of a toy, something you play with, or something you are fascinated by, and this is why you are attracted to programming, then you'll love linux. Which is not to say windows is for serious people and linux is for clowns ;).
From a C programming perspective, linux (the OS kernel) is also interesting because it is open source and written in C, as is all of the essential GNU userland stuff that makes GNU/linux an "operating system". You're not going to get to see the source code for Windows 7 or OSX anytime soon, but you can with linux. The consequences of that are still unfolding, eg, Android, which apparently now runs most of the world's smartphones, started with the linux source code:
I'd bet $$ the linux kernel is used in more diverse environments than any other OS kernel ever. And again: it's open source, written in C...Quote:
Originally Posted by wikipedia
Even if you aren't a programmer, linux is very interesting culturally, in so far as it is not produced by a business model, and demonstrates all the advantages (and disadvantages) of that. Unique, contemporary real world examples like that are hard to come by. IMO, this makes it a qualitatively different beast than other popular OS's. It may not be for the faint of heart tho, lol.
:)
Trust me... Visual Basic did all those things too... it just hid them from you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swoorup
C does not babysit...
First you should visit... TheForgerQuote:
I just want to ask how would a beginner start of with? What should I choose to make as a starter in C programming?
Thank you!
From there start with a couple of simple programs... do stuff like learning how to create a window, working with child controls, etc. There are certain concepts and requirements you need to understand before you're going to do much and it's often best to test each in isolation rather than trying to understand the whole thing as one big blob.
Practical programs are most often a "mother of invention" thing where the need creates the result... My first C project was a MIDI file player/editor, but I sincerely wish I'd started with something simpler, like balancing my chequebook or amortizing my mortgage... The less complex projects would have helped me understand many of the concepts better.
I think this is the comment of the year! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by CommonTater
I met some people that weren't really interested in computers and went to study it anyway, they were not happy.
Don't you like something else that can provide money?
Thank you MK27, CommonTater and Walla.
I don't like anything other things than computing. I sit on my computer all day. Even though I was the best in my class (good old VB offcourse) I find c, linux, ASM difficult and time consuming to learn though. It brings me a lot of frustration. Feels that I will not get a good job. I wished my school and college had taught me C/C++ before.
I know it can do a lot of things and is very transparent, near to ASM. But I just don't understand what project should I be involved in, just to begin with. The knowledge I have learnt took almost 2 months and still nothing I could do.
Anyway thank you guys
Because they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swoorup
Trust me... 2 months is a drop in the bucket. I've been coding in C since 2004 and the guys here are still showing me new stuff on a near daily basis.Quote:
I know it can do a lot of things and is very transparent, near to ASM. But I just don't understand what project should I be involved in, just to begin with. The knowledge I have learnt took almost 2 months and still nothing I could do.
There is something of a secret here... Don't Compare... I see you constantly referring to VB as your standard and comparing C to it. You won't learn C that way. Clear your head of VB and learn C as a brand new undertaking... much like you would set aside your English to learn French. Trying to compare them is going to constantly trip you up.
Thank you for the advice. So I should totally eradicate VB out of my head?
Just one question. If I need to program a solution that needs to be done quickly, can I program in C# for the simplicity?
I heard that it will benefit in learning C/C++ too? That way, I could get done with my projects and learn C at the same time too.
Again thank you!
EDIT: What would you say about jobs that programming offer? Does it have good scope or will it pay me well? I watched some cartoons depicting that employer wants too many out of a programmer. He should know oracle, C++. java, php, html, python, Vbasics, UML, XML,.
That scared the ........ out me! I always want to choose computing as my career.
No, just keep in mind that what you know of VB does not necessarily apply to other programming languages, so don't assume that you already know something because you encountered something akin to it in VB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swoorup
I am not sure what exactly are you asking. If you are really asking "can I?", then I would ask you back: can you? Or perhaps I would devise a test of your C# programming abilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swoorup
I suspect that you are really asking "is C# suitable to develop a solution that needs to be done quickly?" The answer would then depend on what exactly is this solution that you need to program, your skills (and that of your team mates) in C#, and various other factors.
Your mileage may vary :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Swoorup
I have heard of job advertisements where applicants are expected to have n number of years experience in a technology developed less than n number of years ago. Go figure :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Swoorup
>I find c, linux, ASM difficult and time consuming to learn though.
Not to discourage you... but you really should not try to learn too much at once. That would take much more time that the sum of the individual ones, and will be more confusing for you to grasp.
Heh, so have I, since early 04.Quote:
Originally Posted by CommonTater
And yes, 2 months is nothing. (I didn't even know what a pointer was by that time.)
Well, I was getting to know about pointers and even function pointers until someone locked up my topic saying that hacking is not allowed. BTW it was on GTAForums. And R* always allowed modifications :(
Does not matter though.
@laserlight I don't know if I can, but just want to learn it too and get off with VB. And is it similar to C? If it is, then won't it help me in learning C?
@manasij
Exactly. But the way I learn things is quite not practical or others. Anyway her it is:
I think that ASM, linux and C are all related to each other very much, so learning one would help me learn the other at the same time.
Also the main point which why lead me to study all at once is that, if I get stuck at one point then I would be learning the other. Because if I would be sticking with the problem of the first one, then it would be a lot time consuming and would just take a week or too to figure out that.
And also by learning other things I come across terms and the cause/solution of the first problem.
Here is an example: I used to see some codes containg _cdecl ,_stdcall or fastcall.
Then I said to myself what the hell, why is that hard to learn. Then I went through ASM, and I got to know its just the standards of calling convention or the way parameters are passed.
There is this phrase that comes to mind: jack of all trades, master of none. You risk falling into that category if you don't focus your efforts. Being jack of many trades and master of a select few would serve you better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swoorup
Yes, learning C# could help you learn C, but it could also hinder you, because ultimately C# is not C.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swoorup
The only thing that is going to help you learn C is to learn C...Quote:
Originally Posted by Swoorup
You're wandering around like a drunken choirboy here. You're not going to learn *anything* by trying to learn *everything* nobody can even remotely hope to do that. You will find yourself in a much better place --and job-- if you learn one thing and learn it well.
Per the old saying: "A man who knows parts of everything, nows all of nothing."
Tell you what... print out a couple of pages of your beloved VB source code, then print out a couple of pages of properly indented C and a couple of pages of ASM... tack them up on a bulletin board... stand back 10 feet... do you see any resemblence?Quote:
I think that ASM, linux and C are all related to each other very much, so learning one would help me learn the other at the same time.
Trust me... all you are doing is confusing yourself to the point where you'll never be any good at any of them.
Focus on C, and keep that focus until you feel confident with it. As everyone has said, that is going to take more than a few months.
I don't think there is much real practical value to ASM...maybe you could lay off that.
Sure, but you can look thru code and find all kinds of mysterious API calls. Does that mean you need to learn every single API? I guess it depends on the context. In what level of detail? It's great you have taken an interest in assembly, but how much of it do you think it is necessary to know? For what purpose? Are you going to sit and write applications in ASM? I don't think so. I'm sure it is interesting. Learning about transistors and logic gates is interesting too, but unless you plan on engineering microchips, the information does not seem not particularly useful. It may give you some insight into how higher level languages like C work, but you don't need to be proficient with it. Focus on C ;) Make good use of the forum here. Even if you don't have a question, periodically have a look at new threads and try to follow what is being discussed. You can interject a question into someone else's thread. You can put forward an idea and find out how people with more experience feel about it. It's a great place to get feedback and pick up good habits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swoorup
LOL... With the C library getting into the hundreds and Windows topping 30,000... that's just not going to happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by MK27
Hense my frequent advice to learn how to "Look Stuff Up!"
Our friend may have learned about STDCALL etc. from an ASM manual, but he could just as easily have looked on the MSDN site or found it in the help files for his C compiler, both of which will have explainations.
Learning ASM is so much helpful, especially in RE.
Ok thank you guys. I don't have internet connection time and often to look up MSDN, but I will be asking any problem I encounter in learning C or ASM too. Mind if you can tell me where can I download the MSDN visual C++ library permanently to a hard drive?
And yeah, I am very much interested to know how the computer works (Mainly how a processor processes opcodes).Can you give me a few pointers?
Again thanks a lot guys.
EDIT:Why my post did not get formatted with carriage return? EDIT EDIT: Don't bother about this sorry.
I guess you could start here and save the web page, at least one link deep. At least until someone recommends something better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swoorup
Windows API List
The MSDN does list according to Visual Studio version, so you might want to watch out for that. Most parts of the WINAPI are as old as CommonTater is (:p) but things do get added/work differently in newer versions.
Pointers...?Quote:
And yeah, I am very much interested to know how the computer works (Mainly how a processor processes opcodes).Can you give me a few pointers?
I guess you could start here: HowStuffWorks "How Microprocessors Work"
First, if you want to learn C... learn C... I would recommend you look into Pelles C, it's free, it's standards driven, it's very complete with a full set of C99 headers, windows headers and libs, a full suite of resource editors and one of the best help files going. Unlike many other compilers this one is fully documented.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swoorup
The Windows SDK can be downloaded Here... read down the page to find out which version you need for your system.
The SDK is too huge. A little description would be helpful. Whats the difference between MSDN and SDK documentation?
I have been using gcc compiler from DEV CPP software.
I use command line to build though. Should I switch to?
EDIT:Thank you for recommending Pellas, especially the reason its designed only for C and its easy to use.
But the debugger could have done better. I can't jump to an address directly
The Windows SDK is essentially MSDN on a disk.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swoorup
Trust me on this... if you don't have the space to install the SDK you won't have enough space to do much software development...
What are you using for equipment?
No you can't go directly to an address... however you can set breakpoints in your source code and have it run the program up to the breakpoint.Quote:
EDIT:Thank you for recommending Pellas, especially the reason its designed only for C and its easy to use.
But the debugger could have done better. I can't jump to an address directly
On 32 bit projects...
Project -> Project Options -> Compiler -> Debug Information -> full.
Project -> Project Options -> Linker -> Debug Information -> CodeView & Coff
On 64 bit projects...
Project -> Project Options -> Compiler -> Debug Information -> full.
Project -> Project Options -> Linker -> Debug Information -> CodeView
Now you have source level debugging.
There's an addin available from Pelles C forums that adds 3 buttons to the tree view for Release, Debug and Profile versions of the code. You probably should install it as a convenience.
Also look in the help file... In fact, spend some time familiarizing yourself with it's contents. There's a ton of useful information in there. One of POIDE's best tricks is to put your text cursor on a keyword or library function and press F1 for help. Works for every function in the library. Also on the Forums is a download link for the Windows 98 SDK that can be hooked into your help menu and then searched with F1 for windows API call information as well. (This gives you about 75% of what's available on Win7, but you still need the SDK to have the most up to date information)
Oh thank you sir.