Is my programming/IT "career" dead? Should I do something else for a living?

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09-20-2011
y99q

Is my programming/IT "career" dead? Should I do something else for a living?

I really liked the programming that I did in college but I hated the type of programming I did at my last job and the job itself.

I worked for one of those medical recordscompanies that still use semi-proprietary programming languages that look and feel 20 years out of date. I was not doing development. I was responsible for writing custom changes, fixing bugs, retrofitting code. The coding involved was very gentle. No algorithms or complicated code. The difficult part was keeping track of the flow of things and balancing so much info in my head at the same time.

I wasn't good at my job and after a few years ended up getting fired.

The reason given was that I did not work on side projects and did the minimum I was required to do.

That's true. I hated my job and not only could I not concentrate but I literally felt sick every day. If I didn't quit the job is because I preferred to suck it up than be unemployed.

Six months after becoming unemployed my doctor suggested that I visit a psychiatrist. I followed his recommendation and visited a psychiatrist. The psychiatrist told me that I have attention deficit disorder. I was taken aback by the news since I did well in high school and college and other than my social awkwardness no one ever seemed to notice that I had a problem.

I have been on ADD medications for almost half a year and I'm currently taking a .NET programming course (since my programming experience appears to be pretty useless and limited to a very tiny number of companies) with the intention of eventually obtaining a job doing .NET programming.

I don't expect to get a $70,000/year job. More like what I was making at my previous job ( low 40's) which is okay with me as long as I get to work with current technology and work in a stress-free environment.

The thing is, when I started the .NET programming course I noticed that the ADD meds still haven't really solved my problem with concentration. When I am listening to a lecture or reading the book my mind is always wandering from random topic to random topic. My psychiatrist has changed my meds many times already but nothing seems to work.

Frankly, and I know that many people here will just call me a loser, but given the difficulty I am currently having concentrating and getting work done, which is almost the same I was having before I got fired from my job, and given that the meds failed to provide a sufficient amount of help, I can't help but wonder if I am wasting my time pursuing a programming career.

The psychologist who assessed my intellectual abilities earlier this year (I saw this person after I saw the psychiatrist) suggested that I pursue a career in programming or engineering, in spite of having ADD. That tells me that that person didn't take me for an idiot.

But even if he is right and I am not an idiot, maybe I don't have the mental clarity necessary to succeed as a programmer and maybe the psychologist didn't have a clue about what a programming job actually entails?

I mean I can blame my failure at my previous job on a variety of legitimate reasons: an undiagnosed and untreated mental illness, a stressful job environment, a job that I simply hated, outdated technology that drove me insane... but then again, maybe I just sucked.

Assuming that my best bet is to scrap the career I have been trying to obtain since I graduated from college 5 years ago, is there any other type of IT job that I might be able to do that I might actually enjoy? Something like CAD design or something like that? Or am I likely going to have the same problems should I decide to study CAD and pursue a career doing that?

Almost a year unemployed and I still haven't sorted out my problems. I wonder if I'll ever get hired again. not to mention that I can't mention the true reason I left my previous company. I have to lie and say I was laid off. But then the people interviewing me often tell me that as far as they know that company hasn't had any recent layoffs. At times I feel like my psychiatrist is just giving my false hope so that I can at least enjoy a small period of my life in relatively peace before the inevitable despair knocks on my door.
09-20-2011
VirtualAce

First a disclaimer to my post. I am not a psychologist nor did I major in psych so what I am about to say might fly right in the face of modern psych. Also you might not want to take all of our advice that we are about to give b/c most of us are programmers and not psychologists (we do have a few here) and thus our advice might not be the best. Our track record with these types of threads is not all that great. To put it frankly, and I certainly include myself in this group, we usually suck at being understanding and giving advice in these situations.

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At times I feel like my psychiatrist is just giving my false hope

What evidence do you have that it is false hope?

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I can at least enjoy a small period of my life in relatively peace before the inevitable despair knocks on my door.

I would say that is a wee bit melodramatic.

Is your career over? No clue. Do you like software development? If yes then I would say no your career is not over. Perhaps it has stagnated a bit but again this isn't exactly the most bustling economy ever so I say take a number and stand in line.

My advice would be to put out some resumes and see what happens. However before you go to an interview I would certainly change your attitude or outlook on things b/c interviewers will pick up on that and it could remove you from the list of possible candidates regardless of your tech skills and experience.

You don't have to lie about your previous experience. Being fired could have meant that the company simply did not have a place for you that met with your skill set or that you simply did not belong in that company. I would simply say that the opportunity did not work out as planned (IE: will discuss) and explain in the interview face to face your side of the story. You must be careful not to degrade the company that fired you b/c if you will degrade that company then the company you are interviewing for is going to think you will eventually degrade theirs.

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When I am listening to a lecture or reading the book my mind is always wandering from random topic to random topic.

If those are signs of ADD then I need some meds too. In all seriousness I do not think everything is as bad as you are making it sound. I do not wish to one-up you here but I know of several people with the same condition and they do just fine in software development. In fact I would prefer they lead most of the meetings b/c that means we get a very short and focused meeting and then we are outtie.

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That tells me that that person didn't take me for an idiot.

Where did idiot come into play here? No one has called you an idiot except yourself. You have essentially put yourself on trial in the 'court of you' and you are the judge and you are the jury and you have ruled against yourself. That is hardly a fair trial.
09-20-2011
Shawn Belcher

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I really liked the programming that I did in college but I hated the type of programming I did at my last job and the job itself.

A job is not always about doing the most impressive stuff sometimes even the best coders in the world do "hello world"

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I worked for one of those medical recordscompanies that still use semi-proprietary programming languages that look and feel 20 years out of date. I was not doing development. I was responsible for writing custom changes, fixing bugs, retrofitting code. The coding involved was very gentle. No algorithms or complicated code. The difficult part was keeping track of the flow of things and balancing so much info in my head at the same time.

Who ever told you that a programing job will always be complicated was wrong

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I wasn't good at my job and after a few years ended up getting fired.

The reason given was that I did not work on side projects and did the minimum I was required to do.

I find this hard to believe, maybe you where fired because someone else who was working did more then you and they needed to cut someone if so thats how business works

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That's true. I hated my job and not only could I not concentrate but I literally felt sick every day. If I didn't quit the job is because I preferred to suck it up than be unemployed.

Six months after becoming unemployed my doctor suggested that I visit a psychiatrist. I followed his recommendation and visited a psychiatrist. The psychiatrist told me that I have attention deficit disorder. I was taken aback by the news since I did well in high school and college and other than my social awkwardness no one ever seemed to notice that I had a problem.

You have a condition now, and that condition requires medication, I've seen many friends who take the med and are as normal as any one else

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I have been on ADD medications for almost half a year and I'm currently taking a .NET programming course (since my programming experience appears to be pretty useless and limited to a very tiny number of companies) with the intention of eventually obtaining a job doing .NET programming.

I don't expect to get a $70,000/year job. More like what I was making at my previous job ( low 40's) which is okay with me as long as I get to work with current technology and work in a stress-free environment.

I'm pretty sure your asking for to much, you wanted complected hard stuff and yet a stress free one?

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The thing is, when I started the .NET programming course I noticed that the ADD meds still haven't really solved my problem with concentration. When I am listening to a lecture or reading the book my mind is always wandering from random topic to random topic. My psychiatrist has changed my meds many times already but nothing seems to work.

I have allergies , only one obscure allergies med works for me, medication dose not work with evrey one sometimes it takes the one thousand and one pill to work.

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Frankly, and I know that many people here will just call me a loser, but given the difficulty I am currently having concentrating and getting work done, which is almost the same I was having before I got fired from my job, and given that the meds failed to provide a sufficient amount of help, I can't help but wonder if I am wasting my time pursuing a programming career.

There are many pepole with ADD who have the same thing you have ( not all of them programmers) and they can still do it

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The psychologist who assessed my intellectual abilities earlier this year (I saw this person after I saw the psychiatrist) suggested that I pursue a career in programming or engineering, in spite of having ADD. That tells me that that person didn't take me for an idiot.

I don't take you for one either

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But even if he is right and I am not an idiot, maybe I don't have the mental clarity necessary to succeed as a programmer and maybe the psychologist didn't have a clue about what a programming job actually entails?

Any job what so ever requires you to focus on something, there are some pepole who do harder jobs then you with ADD, you need to work on it and it will be hard

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I mean I can blame my failure at my previous job on a variety of legitimate reasons: an undiagnosed and untreated mental illness, a stressful job environment, a job that I simply hated, outdated technology that drove me insane... but then again, maybe I just sucked.

Don't blame anyone\anything but your self, not because its your fault but even if you blame a legitimate reason it's a stone throw away form blaming everything else but the real problem
learn to accept your condition and work with it

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Assuming that my best bet is to scrap the career I have been trying to obtain since I graduated from college 5 years ago, is there any other type of IT job that I might be able to do that I might actually enjoy? Something like CAD design or something like that? Or am I likely going to have the same problems should I decide to study CAD and pursue a career doing that?

You have ADD you will have a hard time focusing on anything really. its the nature of the beast you could be a rocket scientist and still have problems focusing.

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Almost a year unemployed and I still haven't sorted out my problems. I wonder if I'll ever get hired again. not to mention that I can't mention the true reason I left my previous company. I have to lie and say I was laid off. But then the people interviewing me often tell me that as far as they know that company hasn't had any recent layoffs. At times I feel like my psychiatrist is just giving my false hope so that I can at least enjoy a small period of my life in relatively peace before the inevitable despair knocks on my door.

A year is not a long time, I fought with many of my problems for a decade now, and I an tell you it takes a long time to adapt but when you do it makes you stronger
09-21-2011
MK27

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Originally Posted by y99q

Six months after becoming unemployed my doctor suggested that I visit a psychiatrist. I followed his recommendation and visited a psychiatrist. The psychiatrist told me that I have attention deficit disorder. I was taken aback by the news since I did well in high school and college and other than my social awkwardness no one ever seemed to notice that I had a problem.

I'm someone who's always done well academically too (eg, I finished with a 3.5 GPA from what is considered to be one of the best schools in my country), but have also always had the kind of "behavioral and disciplinary problems" associated with hyper-active kids; since these were not too severe and I otherwise did well, they were not taken too seriously by me or anyone else.

Part way thru university, a friend with ADHD, who also did very well and had a similar personality, gave me "Driven to Distraction" by Edward Hallowell to read. Up until that point, I had never thought of myself as someone with a "learning disability", because I was always at the top of my class. I considered my "behavioral problems" growing up as a natural response to a somewhat ridiculous society, and as an adult was conscious enough of my inclinations to stay out of trouble, but I still did not really feel completely in control and often fell pray to moods in a way that I did recognize as abnormal, but could not prevent.

"Driven to Distraction" described certain ubiquitous aspects of my life in perfect detail -- ie, I realized I was a text book case, with a cultivated ability to hyper-focus on certain activities, which was why I could do well at things if I took an interest in them (I also have a high IQ, >130). I totally identified with the depressive cycle that can go along with ADHD. I was assessed, my school records going back to grade one taken into account, etc, and diagnosed. That was 13 or 14 years ago, I'm now 38.

I'm very glad that happened to me as, altho my life since then has had some very difficult periods, I am certain they would have been much harder to deal with otherwise.

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I have been on ADD medications for almost half a year

I was on up to 110mg of dexedrine/day for ~5 years. I started off on ritalin but switched as I found the dex better.

I think the medication is enlightening (altho, nb, I do not think it is appropriate for children) and did what it is supposed to do, but I also think for the first little while "a lot of tish came out of me" because my mind was adjusting; the habits I'd developed to deal with my ADHD symptoms were no longer (or, much less) necessary, but I did not have any other patterns underneath that. I was also scared that I had replaced one problem with another -- dependence on the meds -- and that my old problems would come back when I stopped.

Most people who take ADHD medication do not take it their entire lives, as I am sure you have already been told. I was convinced that I would be stuck doing so, until one day I decided I had probably gotten as much out of it as I was going to. There was a bit of an adjustment, but my "old problems" in fact did not come back.

I'm just saying this because I know while the meds have a very tangible positive affect (which you seem to be missing, more on that below), they also can have subtle negative effects. I believe part of that is because your mind is more automatic than we would like to admit -- it works like a pattern, and when you monkey wrench that pattern, it becomes less automatic, and you, "the subject", experience some anxiety or angst. My advice is: stick it out, even if it doesn't seem easy sometimes. Change can be difficult.

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and I'm currently taking a .NET programming course (since my programming experience appears to be pretty useless and limited to a very tiny number of companies) with the intention of eventually obtaining a job doing .NET programming.

My BA was in English and Humanities. I intended to be a teacher, but I am not a particularly career oriented person and was not in a rush to leap into it after I finished school, so I did other things. Eventually I realized I would probably be unhappy teaching below the university level, but did not want to commit myself to post graduate work, then (most likely) having to accept a job in whatever city I could find one in.

I won't get into how I fell into programming or the details of my "career" (as it is less than two years long), but:

- I love programming. I really feel it is what "I was born to do", and I also believe part of that is because of my ADHD: I hyper-focus, and I'm most relaxed and happy that way. Programming is an easy way for me to get there. I believe I'm good at it, and have gotten mostly positive feedback from employers/clients in this regard.

- I cannot work in a lot of "normal" environments. I have more than once stood up and excused myself from an interview at a point when I realized I simply would not enjoy the job. Without any doubt. For me, the issue is that I love programming, and when I do it, I'm absorbed by it. Hence, I would honestly rather work a menial job that didn't interest me at all than work doing something I love in a place that I hate with people I don't like. I also think this is characteristic of ADD types.

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The thing is, when I started the .NET programming course I noticed that the ADD meds still haven't really solved my problem with concentration. When I am listening to a lecture or reading the book my mind is always wandering from random topic to random topic. My psychiatrist has changed my meds many times already but nothing seems to work.

You've only been taking them for six months, so again, your mind is maybe still stuck with those old patterns. In order for the meds to help with that, I really think you have to feel them very clearly. In my experience, doctors are inclined to be conservative when prescribing these drugs to young men. When I started taking them, I think the dosages were intended just to check that I would not respond badly; they were very low. You doctor may or may not understand that depending on his/her own experience. If you are not very conscious of an effect within an hour of taking the pills, ask for more. Then keep asking for more until you feel that you really don't want any more. Honestly. If you have a reasonable doctor, s/he will agree to increase the dosage at regular intervals -- say once every week or so -- until you feel you are satisfied. 110 mg of dexedrine a day is actually twice the DSM recommended maximum; my first prescription was for 5mg. Tolerance is a factor, but regardless, I think you need a lot more than what is initially recommended. Also: do not bother with anything that is not a stimulant (ritalin, dexadrine, or levo-amphetamine). At one point after moving, I had a doctor who did not believe in stimulant use and prescribed me SSRI anti-depressants. They did not do me any good. I had to write a letter to the head of the clinic to get it changed. If at all possible, find a doctor who specializes (or at least, has experience with) ADD patients. Don't just use your old family doctor for prescriptions -- s/he will be afraid of it and you will get short changed.

That said, if you work your way up to 80-100% of the recommended max for dex or ritalin and are still not benefiting after a few months, maybe you have been mis-diagnosed with the wrong problem. ADHD sufferers have a somewhat atypical response to stimulants because it is a dopamine re-uptake problem (they calm me down). If you don't have a dopamine re-uptake problem (and instead have some other problem), stimulants may not help much (altho no one is immune to them so again, if you don't feel something, you did not take enough). But for now be patient, and don't flake out until you give this more of a chance.

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The psychologist who assessed my intellectual abilities earlier this year (I saw this person after I saw the psychiatrist) suggested that I pursue a career in programming or engineering, in spite of having ADD. That tells me that that person didn't take me for an idiot.

AFAIK the range of intelligence amongst ADHD suffers is the same as it is for the normal population; it is just a specific form of disability.

But if you aren't really into what you are doing, you are going to have a hard time forcing yourself.

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Assuming that my best bet is to scrap the career I have been trying to obtain since I graduated from college

Like I said, I scrapped my intended path and I'm glad I did. OTOH, maybe you just want to put it on hold for a while. You just got diagnosed and began treatment for a problem you've had your entire life -- what's more, you didn't even recognize you had it. That is going to take some work and adjustment. Maybe you need to focus on that and not worry about the long term for a while.

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But then the people interviewing me often tell me that as far as they know that company hasn't had any recent layoffs.

Don't lie and don't be ashamed. Have you tried telling them this story? At least for the time being, I think you would be making a mistake trying to work somewhere where you had to hide what is going on for you.

Maybe that means finding something temporary and non-career oriented for a while. Something that can pay your bills but doesn't require you take it too seriously. Where nobody cares about your ADD or your current growing pains.

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At times I feel like my psychiatrist is just giving my false hope so that I can at least enjoy a small period of my life in relatively peace before the inevitable despair knocks on my door.

Well, you have opened pandora's box in a way. You are not going to get out of your diagnosis or be able to return to a time when you were ignorant of it. But do not start feeling sorry for yourself. There are much more severe problems you could have that might merit genuine despair. I suppose I wish I did not have ADHD, but I've accepted and come to terms with it. I really believe if I had not been diagnosed, or had subsequently rejected the diagnosis, I would have ended up much more confused and unhappy.

Do not pay attention to people who want to convince you that ADHD does not exist and it is about the television generation or junk food or your nature as a sinner. These people have a socio-political agenda and do not have your best interests in mind. They are pretty common. Just tell them to leave you alone about this.

Because of the ADHD friend* who got me to read Driven to Distraction, I initially had a lot of help from someone with experience with the same problem. Surely that's significant, and something you won't get a prescription for. If you don't, maybe look around for a support group: CHADD Live | Home Page.

* We've been in and out of touch since then as we don't live in the same place anymore. In the spring, he kept talking about suicide, which I did not take very seriously as he had always been the kind of "larger than life" figure most people are jealous of -- tall, lean, charismatic, razor sharp, outgoing, very talented, irrepressible. I was devastated when I found out he had thrown himself off a balcony. I don't know if there is anything I could have said or done without having been there. His problems went beyond ADHD but IMO were still not that big a deal, so I don't wonder if it wasn't a contributing factor to his despair.
Keep your head up and do not let other people drag you down. Work is just work. You are not your job, or lack thereof, so don't obsess about it. And exercise ;)
09-23-2011
nvoigt

I can't tell you anything about ADS but I can tell you something about the people I know that I'd call "good programmers": they all love coding and they all suck once they have to do something they don't like. With something boring, they have attention spans that are probably measured in nanoseconds.

"Programming" as a career is probably as diverse as "law enforcement". Take an FBI Profiler and a local cop and have them switch places. Both will suck and both will be unhappy out of their natural environment. Or take an accountant from the department of finances and let him handle youth welfare services. They will all be unhappy, they will all suck because no two jobs in law enforcement are the same and no two jobs in programming are the same. You need to find the job for you that makes you happy. I've seen people code C++ for torpedo systems, C# for smartphones, ASM for washing machines, Java for traveling agency software, php for webshops and there are probably another thousand ways to spend your life "programming". If you like programming, I'm pretty sure there is one for you, too. Don't give up because the first one wasn't your dream job. You didn't gave up on women when you and your highschool girfriend broke up, right?

I'm in no way a psychatrist but I can tell you that you are not just your job or that piece of paper that says AHDS. Don't let them rule your life. Find something that is fun and try to make money doing it (Disclaimer: some fun things are illegal in some countries :P). You think programming is fun? Go grab a job that fits you.
09-23-2011
BobMcGee123

I don't have vast reserves of wisdom to tap into, so I don't know what I could say to help you except that your situation seems really really freaking difficult, and, I urge you to keep talking to the psychiatrist. My impression is that you are perhaps going too hard on yourself, and perhaps you might benefit from re-framing some of your thoughts to handle your tough situation in a manner as healthy as possible.

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The psychiatrist told me that I have attention deficit disorder. I was taken aback by the news since I did well in high school and college and other than my social awkwardness no one ever seemed to notice that I had a problem.

Same here, did well in HS and college and was diagnosed with adult ADHD (I'm 25, diagnosed around 23ish). Was on adderall for a while, and while effective to a degree I ended up opting out of it. What ended up being the bigger manifestation of my ADHD/hyperactivity was severe tiredness during the day, and trouble sleeping at night. Ironically, the adderall corrected my sleeping patterns, but it made me feel nervous/jittery. Now I'm on trazodone, a fairly common antidepressant that works similarly to prozac, but has immediate sedative effects. The increased serotonin levels helped with the focus aspect, and it works very well.

Hang in there and good luck!
09-23-2011
cyberfish

I'm still in school (and doing pretty well, since I'm doing something I love), and reading the descriptions, it seems like I may have it, too... My attention span for boring stuff is much shorter than most people.

I guess the workaround is to just do something you enjoy?

I wouldn't worry about programming. Just don't become a fighter pilot or something. (Most) programming should be relatively harmless.
10-11-2011
SabreX

y99q-

I read your post and it reminded me of issues I have encountered to varying degrees throughout my software engineering career of close to twenty years. Programming in a typical company is very competitive. Programmers are usually socially awkward and physically unattractive people. As a result, they identify with their intellectual capabilities from an early age. (Perhaps this is a chicken and egg proposition..) This is often measured, in the mind of the developer, by his ability to rapidly develop complicated code, with the goal of approval and consensus from the other people in his group/company that he is exceptionally bright/capable.

The problem is that not everyone can rise to the top, and thus you are stuck in a competitive game with a group of people who are largely socially awkward, have a distorted view of their own abilities, and who lack grace. They seek to be regarded as highly competent, but because there is little to distinquish them from their coworkers, this drive to succeed often manifests itself by attacking or downgrading the ability of other developers. There is a definite, unwritten hierarchy in most programming shops, and it is as much related to social aspects as it is to coding ability or intelligence.

There is a constant filtering going on. The developers who are perceived to be the brightest are given more opportunities, end up given the better projects, are often given more lead time in completing these projects, so it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Over time, they gain more exposure and are able to distinguish themselves from their "lesser" coworkers, but there is little underlying difference between them and the others.

The opposite side of the coin is to find yourself underfoot, where you were last year, with a manager firing you because you fell out of the bottom. You are given unattractive assignments, lose interest, are perceived as a flunky, and then your job is in jeopardy. The point I am making here is that when you are fired, unless you did something grossly negligent, it is something that has been a long time in the making, often subconsciously motivated by the competitive nature of programmers. It is often the less aggressive, more sensitive, more thoughtful, more socially adjusted developers who find themselves in this position. The way "average" developers try to protect this happening to them is copping an attitude: The expression of programming as an essential part of their personality, and aggression and contempt towards other employees who do not outwardly express the same devotion. This is the personality of a programmer. (Note that this agression is often very subtle or covert.)

More thoughtful employees, those who have a more realistic picture of their own abillities, are found to be in the position of questioning their abilities. This is where you are now. Let me tell you, it sounds like you have been through the ringer! You are given ........ jobs, and then when you lost interest, an arrogant programmer told you that you werent good enough! Now you are medicating yourself for ADD and lack confidence to find a new job.

I can say that this pattern plays itself out in different companies, and until you are given a REAL chance to show your worth, you will not see the fallacy of your situation. You can go from a lead developer at one company, greatly successful in designing and solving complicated problems, to find yourself in a new company with a lack of respect and contempt from other developers who are struggling to establish their worth. Don't buy in to it.

My advice to you is to protect your enjoyment of programming from anything that happens in the workplace. If you enjoy programming, want to do algorithm development or whatever, but arent given those opportunities in the workplace, do those things for yourself. You can get quite an appreciative audience on the web. You can share your creations or lend your talent to solving/contributing to open source development. Because the personality of corporate programmers is arrogant and contemptuous, you will often not find the affirmation from them that you need. If you are armed with a body of work outside of the company that you are writing code for, this will lend credence to your abilities, and you will care less about getting fired, because your skills sell themselves.

Regarding the .net certification. This is a good start, but don't do it ONLY to get a job. Do it because you enjoy the things you will be able to build with that technology. Then build something you can be proud of. If you can't identify with this concept, then you really shouldnt be programming, because you will burn out sooner rather than later. There is no shame in that. In fact, there are alot of supplemental positions in most development companies. Testing, systems engineering, functional management, etc. Or you can switch industries. No shame or judgement here.

Now regarding the medicines, I fell into a similar trap early in my career and used ritalin for a couple years. My view is that there is no real condition of ADD because there is a continum of concentration ability. Where do you draw the line? Almost everyone's concentration is improved by stimulants, so ADD is just a medical diagnosis people seek in order to help the get a performance drug. If you take a holistic view of your concentration, I am sure that with improved sleep, relaxation, better diet (no caffeine or too much carbs), that you can improve your concentration greatly. Ritalin or provigil is just a band aid performance drug. Everyone suffers from concentration problems, and this becomes especially apparent when you are given ........ jobs working for a ........ manager in a ........ company. Separate yourself from these situations and you will find that you don't need the drugs anymore.
10-11-2011
VirtualAce

Please do not bump old threads. Closed.