Next level of retirement....

Well, it's looking like I might soon be doing one of two drastic things...

A) Giving up a 30 year hobby of writing small but handy programs.

B) Taking my computers back to Windows XP.

Despite all it's really groovy eye candy, Windows 7 is a total nightmare both from the user's and the programmer's standpoint. A significant part of my day is filled with corrupted flash drives, incomplete downloads, slow networking and a miriade of random problems. From a programming standpoint it's like pulling teeth --involuntarily!-- every programming session leaves me feeling beat up and disappointed. Even the simplest things --like making a file association-- have been complicated to the point of no return... and quite frankly I'm thinking about not coming back.

On XP it was so easy... fire up the box, download some stuff, copy it to flash drives... load up the compiler and tap out some code for my own amusement... and it all "just worked".

To give some idea of the problem... I ran a single installation of Win2000 from late 1999 to mid 2005 (I put it in, did a little tweaking and then just used it) then used a single installation of XP until mid-2010... I've now reinstalled Windows 7 for the 5th time in less than a year and it's still acting up...

Interestingly, some of the companies I used to do service for are telling me the same thing... Win 7 is just too unstable for commercial use. A couple even offered me money to backdate them to XP...

So, rant aside... has anyone else had this or similar experiences?

It must be some hardware issue, dunno. I'm still using the RTM installation I did in August (September?), 2009. Just so you can have an idea.

As for the advice you've been getting, be careful. Windows 7 certainly has been seeing a lot more adoption from the enterprise market than Windows Vista could ever hope for. While displacing Windows XP (possibly their best OS since the MSDOS 5.0/Windows 3.11 combo) will be a many years task, don't lock yourself out from potential customer that intend to migrate to newer versions of the OS. Especially when Windows 7 gives you tight integration with Windows XP applications through XP Mode.

I do full-time programming in Windows 7 and use all sorts of applications. I confess Windows 7 stability gives me the exact same feeling of confidence I had with Windows XP SP3. I'll be missing XP certainly (especially because Windows 7 didn't really bring anything new and meaningful. It's a rip off). But unfortunately, technologies are being developed that are purposely locked out of Windows XP. You don't use Windows Vista or 7, you can't program for them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mario F.

It must be some hardware issue, dunno. I'm still using the RTM installation I did in August, 2009. Just so you can have an idea.

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In the process of this last over-the-weekend reinstall, I stuffed in XP for just that reason... downloaded, read/wrote thumb drives, did all the stuff that gives me headaches ... XP did it no problem, AND, it did it faster -- by easily noticeable margins!

Quote:

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As for the advice you've been getting, be careful. Windows 7 certainly has been seeing a lot more adoption from the enterprise market than Windows Vista could ever hope for.

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But it's still way less than 50% market share... Granted it's already left Vista in the dust, but that's no big trick with Vista's constant --and undefeatable-- nagging... "Do you want to allow this?" Answer: "Yes... yes now... and yes the other 50 times you asked!" No wonder that went noplace fast. In fact, there was a time when a significant bit of my income came from stripping Vista out of brand new machines and putting in XP.

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While displacing Windows XP (possibly their best OS since the MSDOS 5.0/Windows 3.11 combo) will be a many years task, don't lock yourself out from potential customer that intend to migrate to newer versions of the OS. Especially when Windows 7 gives you tight integration with Windows XP applications through XP Mode.

I do full-time programming in Windows 7 and use all sorts of applications. I confess Windows 7 stability gives me the exact same feeling of confidence I had with Windows XP SP3. I'll be missing XP certainly (especially because Windows 7 didn't really bring anything new and meaningful. It's a rip off). But unfortunately, technologies are being developed that are purposely locked out of Windows XP. You don't use Windows Vista or 7, you can't program for them.

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Hense my title "second level of retirement"... Being only a few months short of the big six oh, my plan was to while away my retirement years producing bits and pieces of freeware, like the one currently on my webspace ( HTPC Remote Control: Remote Media ) It's just C code at the WinAPI level, no fancy stuff involved or planned. Also, there is no profit motive now --although I am a long way from rich-- it's just me filling in the hours... So, I'm a lot less concerned about new technologies and stuff nobody needs than I used to be.

For now, I'm dual booting until I get to the root of the problems and for a good comparison... XP is my primary... so we'll see where that goes.

But there's still the matter than Win7 is a programmer's nightmare...

One simple example... File associations... On Win2k/xp ... make two quick keys in HKCR and you're off and running... On Win7 there are at least 8 places in the registry where a file can initiate a program launch and the api that's supposed to tell you which one is active rarely takes you to the right place.

Toss code signing, side-by-side, gadgets, autoplay and a bunch of other useless crap into the mix and my hobby does little more than drive up my Excedrin bill...

Sorry, but I don't see that many problems. Get online with Windows Team Blogs and Channel 9 to brush up on Windows 7 development. File associations in Windows 7 got an overhaul. Not only have they been integrated into security interfaces, but there's also added or changed functionality (preview handlers, jump lists, or association arrays come to mind). However for every task the development path is pretty much straightforward and unique. You just need to know how to do it. There's even a file type verifier that comes with the Windows 7 SDK that lets you check your file associations to every little detail.

I won't deny there are issues (although the only ones I faced so far had to do with taskbar programming). But really, let's not get carried away by our love for XP and just forget how we got whgere we are today; XP itself required 3 service packs to become what it is today. Windows 7 minus SP is already worlds away from what XP used to be all the way up to XP2 (a piece of crap!). And XP is exempt of programming idiosyncrasies either. It's not that the Windows API is a paragon of clean, intuitive and well documented code.

EDIT: Also http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/libr...=VS.85%29.aspx

Believe me Mario, I have no grand love of XP ... this is more out of disgust with Win7...

They did some really cool stuff in 7. I REALLY like the Aero UI but some of the other stuff just undoes the whole thing... Like loading Task Scheduler up with spyware... that was NOT cool. Whatever they did to the multimedia subsystem was equally uncool... It won't even play MP3s on my dual core Atom based HTPC system, and forget AVIs or FLACs; hearing the audio go BRRRRRAAAAP every few seconds seriously detracts from the enjoyment. But XP is totally flawless on that machine...

There are still many areas where XP is the OS of choice... most prominently in Home Theatre systems where lower DPI latency leads to noticeably better sound and video quality; noticeable even on the most "high end" of systems. Many medium large offices in this area are still using XP for workstations and 2000 for servers... systems that have been stable for years.

It's true the Windows API and SDK documentation is beyond disastrous. But it's just as true that large parts of windows are (deliberately) far more complex and convoluted than they need to be. Going back to file registrations as my example... I could have done a better job of that in 1/10th the registry space and with a lot less BS to make it work...

Code:

---

HKLM_Associations
  .mp3
    Open = (media player command line)
    Play  = (media player command line with different options)
    EditTags = (tag editor command line)
    ...

---

Really... it doesn't need to be more complex than that... and like so many other things in Windows, I rather suspect the complexity is reflective of some programming group hoping to keep their jobs...

I dunno... maybe my age is finally catching up to me... but it seems that since switchting to Win7 all I've really done is find stuff I can't do... and can't make sense of.... and for a 30 year experienced electronics technician, this comes as something of a surprise.

I think You guys are typing too much in a single Post !!
I cant read them completely. make it short guys.. :-)

Quote:

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So, rant aside... has anyone else had this or similar experiences?

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Not at all, Beta and Production versions were rock solid. You are the first to mention any real problems aside from the normal "doesn't look the way I liked it" people.

Im with nvoigt on this one. I went from XP to linux, stuck with linux until i got a new laptop that had various issues with linux i couldnt figure out to my satisfaction and after about 5 or 6 installs of various distros and the problem still emerging i just gave up and just started using the windows 7 version it came with. Have been pleasently surprised. I love the new startmenu where i dont have to locate an icon to do anything..open it up and type whatever program you want to start (just like i did in linux btw, just with xterm) and off i went and so on.

Some things i find a bit hard to find and that you have to go through "complex" ways to get to them but overall i like it ALOT more than vista and have had pretty much no stability issues with it

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gaurav Singh

I think You guys are typing too much in a single Post !!
I cant read them completely. make it short guys.. :-)

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Enhance your calm... perhaps work on that reading comprehension a bit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shakti

Im with nvoigt on this one. I went from XP to linux, stuck with linux until i got a new laptop that had various issues with linux i couldnt figure out to my satisfaction and after about 5 or 6 installs of various distros and the problem still emerging i just gave up and just started using the windows 7 version it came with. Have been pleasently surprised. I love the new startmenu where i dont have to locate an icon to do anything..open it up and type whatever program you want to start (just like i did in linux btw, just with xterm) and off i went and so on.

Some things i find a bit hard to find and that you have to go through "complex" ways to get to them but overall i like it ALOT more than vista and have had pretty much no stability issues with it

---

I share your linux experience... never did get a copy of linux to run well enough to learn from and found their version of support to be: "What you don't know how to.... ???"

I hate that I'm thinking of backtracking like this. I used to be far more adventurous but it just seems like all I do anymore is bang up against problems. In win2k and XP I would write stuff in a day that now takes me several weeks in win7...

However; the stability issues are not unique to me... I know several people from my previous customer base are having problems too...

Your reassurance is taken... but perhaps with a grain of salt.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gaurav Singh

I think You guys are typing too much in a single Post !!
I cant read them completely. make it short guys.. :-)

---

I think you took a left instead of a right on your way here. Tweeter is that way -->

But let me put it to you in the words of Benjamin Franklin; Sorry if our posts are too long. We lack the time to make them shorter.

I've been running Windows 7 for about 4 months now on 2 different computers. Not a single issue with stability or performance. No stuttering multimedia, nothing. I love it. I also do all of my development under Win7. No issues there either.

You're 60?! Dude, this just destroyed my whole mental image of you... I was thinking ~20 and still in college...

I'm a really bad at telling who people are by there internet persona, apparently.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by User Name:

You're 60?! Dude, this just destroyed my whole mental image of you... I was thinking ~20 and still in college...

I'm a really bad at telling who people are by there internet persona, apparently.

---

Well, in all truth I am 20 ... but for the 40th time. LOL... Yep... 60 in August.

Old puzzle...
You have 7 jars of marbles containing 21, 17, 43, 12, 78, 41 and 11 marbles.

How many of those containers have 6 marbles in them?

Answer: They all do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CommonTater

Answer: They all do.

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Hmm... actually it will depend if the jars are closed or not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mario F.

Hmm... actually it will depend if the jars are closed or not.

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Well, unless you're planning to steal my few remaining marbles that is... :)


Actually ... if I have 6 marbles, I also have 5, 4, 3, 2, and 1 marbles... But I don't have 7.

And then there's this... 13 x 7 = 28

Well if the jars are closed we have one tough nut to crack. You see, there will be many, a few, one and no marbles on each jar. All at the same time. It's a mess, and you can see the problem if somehow these marbles represented your age... :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mario F.

Well if the jars are closed we have one tough nut to crack. You see, there will be many, a few, one and no marbles on each jar. All at the same time. It's a mess, and you can see the problem if somehow these marbles represented your age... :)

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LOL.... And this is helping me with win 7 exactly how?

Seriously though, there does seem to be a constellation of problems with win7 in my "friendbase" and like a few of them, the thought of reverting... perhaps trying again with win8 ....

It's reassuring to hear it's not a widespread problem... now all I gotta do is figure out what's behind it...

Quote:

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Well, in all truth I am 20 ... but for the 40th time.

...And then there's this... 13 x 7 = 28

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Happy 600th birthday anyway!

To be honest, I haven't tried windows 7 yet, but if you're into confirmation bias, you are not alone, reporting that windows 7 is corrupting things. Although, personally, I always eject my flash drives on the computer before pulling them out. That forces the drive to flush out everything I guess, so I would be interested to know if more people, besides me, do this also.

It may still be a problem with windows 7, but that's just what comes to mind.

I could also imagine that some older hardware lacks proper driver support for windows 7. Sure windows 7 ships with alot of drivers but as i noticed on my older laptop that came with XP some things just would not work properly until a driver was installed, and my guess is that most companies can't really be bothered to test a driver for 3 years old hardware properly, so that might have something to do with it aswell maybe?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by whiteflags

Happy 600th birthday anyway!

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HEY!!! ... it's not til August... :cool:

Quote:

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To be honest, I haven't tried windows 7 yet, but if you're into confirmation bias, you are not alone, reporting that windows 7 is corrupting things. Although, personally, I always eject my flash drives on the computer before pulling them out. That forces the drive to flush out everything I guess, so I would be interested to know if more people, besides me, do this also.

---

Actually I garnered a significant improvement on Win7 by going into the Device manager and setting my external devices to "optimize for easy removal" (the default) and NOT using the ejector tool... Up to that point I was getting about 1 in 3 corrupted flash drives, now it's more like 1 in 50.

There is a known USB issue on Win7 ... Corruption of flash drives is only one part of it. A couple of self-declared audiophiles (people with too much money and too big speakers) were able to demonstrate the *clearly audible* difference between Win7 and XP when using external DACs for their sound... A tone that sounds very pure on XP will "Warble" (vibrato effect) noticeably on Win7... even on quad core AMD setups... It would seem there's some timing issues there...

Also I noticed that Win7 drops characters while I type... I'm fast, but hardly a fire starter... and I haven't outtyped a computer since the DOS days... but when I get on a roll with Win7 it loses about 1 in 100 characters.

If you grab the DPC Latency tool you will discover that while XP typically runs 17 to 20 microseconds delay in processing Deferred Procedure Calls (kernel code) Win7 usually runs 200 to 300... and that's enough to make a huge difference in performance...

I dunno... maybe it's a tempest in a teacup... but then, maybe not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shakti

I could also imagine that some older hardware lacks proper driver support for windows 7. Sure windows 7 ships with alot of drivers but as i noticed on my older laptop that came with XP some things just would not work properly until a driver was installed, and my guess is that most companies can't really be bothered to test a driver for 3 years old hardware properly, so that might have something to do with it aswell maybe?

---

Yep, sure might... My PC is about 3 years old at this point... mid-range in the AMD 64X2 run... Stable as a rock and working so well I'll hate to get rid of it but yes, drivers could be an issue. I haven't gone direct to the manufacturer's sites yet. Maybe I should.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CommonTater

If you grab the DPC Latency tool you will discover that while XP typically runs 17 to 20 microseconds delay in processing Deferred Procedure Calls (kernel code) Win7 usually runs 200 to 300... and that's enough to make a huge difference in performance...

---

Well, first and foremost Microsoft recommends (and makes it a part of their Logo program) that a DPC shouldn't run for longer than 100 microseconds. Second, it isn't really Windows (XP or 7) that is responsible for that. DPCs are executed by device drivers. What you have there instead is a typical example of a bad driver for Windows 7 vs a good driver for Windows XP. Blame the manufacturer once you find the source.

EDIT: To clarify the context of this post: In response to your marble joke:

Variation: How many months are 28 days long?

75% of people will say "one."

EDIT: Wow, this is progressing fast. I just read my email about a new post and posted here w/o looking to see if any new had been posted... apparently there has been.

I've did some preliminary test with that DPC latency tool.

Here I'm playing an mp3 and streaming video at the same time. You'll be able to see the specs of this machine from the gadgets on the right. It's an old machine, like yours. More specifically an Intel Core2 Duo. The sound is coming from the onboard chip. The video from an ATI HD Radeon 4770.

Attachment 10348

Not once I got anywhere close to 500 microseconds. But I do get above 100 microseconds often, which is something I should expect considering I'm doing something stupid. Still nowhere near what you are experiencing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mario F.

Well, first and foremost Microsoft recommends (and makes it a part of their Logo program) that a DPC shouldn't run for longer than 100 microseconds. Second, it isn't really Windows (XP or 7) that is responsible for that. DPCs are executed by device drivers. What you have there instead is a typical example of a bad driver for Windows 7 vs a good driver for Windows XP. Blame the manufacturer once you find the source.

---

Actually, Mario, I'm not getting any spikes... never over 300, which is usually while I'm watching the news and doing backups at the same time... very IO intensive stuff.

THIS machine doesn't have the audio and video problem. That's a whole different computer that also has no DPC spiking, just a consistently high delay... I never did figure that one out, I needed it working for a demo so it went back on XP real quick...

Still there is an audible difference in sound between XP and 7... as I now have my main machine dual booting, I can hear it... The XP sound is clear, almost transparent on FLAC sources where the Win7 machine is "cloudy" (for lack of a better term). It's the same hardware so I have to write that off to drivers as both are running Media Player Classic.

(If you're concluding that I'm all about AV, you're correct. I made my living at it for a long time)

Oddly, now that I'm dual booting, this install of Win7 seems better behaved... my DAC is working on both (which it never did before) but I haven't had the chance to check the other stuff just yet... Still drops keyboard characters though...

I dunno... An AMD 64x2 at 3ghz should do better than this... There's a noticeable difference in performance between 7 and XP... XP is clearly faster.

It just fries my gonads that I spent $1200 on several copies of an OS I'm likely to relgate to the dustbin...
Win7 Pro is $329.00 in my area...

I've installed Windows 7 on 3 computers and it has worked flawlessly.

The only trouble I have had is on one computer which is about 8 years old. I had to search around for the correct drivers for its old video and sound cards, and even with the correct video card driver I get choppy HD video (understandable...it's old hardware), but other than that that computer works great.

[edit]

I also love how fast Windows 7 boots compared to XP....even XP right out of the box.

[/edit]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DavidP

I've installed Windows 7 on 3 computers and it has worked flawlessly.

The only trouble I have had is on one computer which is about 8 years old. I had to search around for the correct drivers for its old video and sound cards, and even with the correct video card driver I get choppy HD video (understandable...it's old hardware), but other than that that computer works great.

---

Yep, I see that a lot... A lot of people use "last generation" pcs for HTPC systems and often as not they run into problems with Win7... usually XP is the fix.

Quote:

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I also love how fast Windows 7 boots compared to XP....even XP right out of the box.

---

Ok.. dual boot, same machine... Win7... 48 seconds. Win XP... 27 seconds.

See, that's what I don't get... I've put 7 in about 50 machines now (put XP back in 14 of them) and for some reason my results are wildly different than what is reported online... Now the logical first step in this is to blame myself: "What am I doing wrong". But amongst my little gang, others have done their own installs and some have purchased machines with Win7 installed at factory and they're experiencing the same issues... corrupt flash drives, DACs not working, crappy audio and video, keyboards dropping characters, etc. so I have a bit of a problem thinking this is my own fault...

Frankly, I'm beginning to wonder how much my opinion is being skewed by variance between obvious Win7 fan sites and the reality of day to day operations... They say it's so wonderful, flawless... no critical thinking... But one simply does not produce a double layer DVD full of code without at least a few bugs creeping into the mix.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CommonTater

It just fries my gonads that I spent $1200 on several copies of an OS I'm likely to relgate to the dustbin...

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You need to get in on the beta programs, I haven't paid for a Microsoft OS in yonks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by adeyblue

You need to get in on the beta programs, I haven't paid for a Microsoft OS in yonks.

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LOL... now I really didn't want to hear that!!!

Sounds like something I should look into... Got any links... suggestions... etc.

To my knowledge Windows 7 was the first offering final versions for free to beta testers. No other OS, or product from Microsoft ever did that before.

Alternatively, and possibly a more complete solution for you is BizSpark. This was my safe harbor and little corner in the sky. You start your own company, and you can enroll. For 3 years you get the equivalent of a MSDN Premium subscription, with access to all of Microsoft's software (keys are lifetime and it's usually 2 keys per product) and with the ability to subscribe new employees, up to 10, for their own free 3 year-long MSDN premium subscriptions.

As I understand the process of starting a company in Ontario is pretty much similar to here. It can be done in 24 hours, costs are minimal, and you only have to worry about getting an accredited accountant, who you pay once or twice an year. All together the costs of maintaining, even an entire open-source business like yours, are far inferior than the costs associated with buying all that software you will now starting to get for free.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mario F.

To my knowledge Windows 7 was the first offering final versions for free to beta testers. No other OS, or product from Microsoft ever did that before.

---

You better tell Microsoft that I misappropraited Vista then. And a full copy of Microsoft Student. They've also sent me 2 copies of the XP Powertoys, the last Windows Home Server version, about lebenty billion copies of the Exchange 2000 handbook, various other MS Press books and one of those thick-ass MCSE training kits.

As for the links, you sign up on connect and they wing you an invitation if they want you on the beta. It's the luck of the draw until you have a track record then your chances increase though it's never guaranteed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mario F.

All together the costs of maintaining, even an entire open-source business like yours.

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Indeed setting up self-employment in Ontario is pretty straighforward... Incorporating is a little more complex. I will look into this, especially if it gives me a feedback path to Microsoft...

However; I should remind you that what I'm doing is not a business nor is it Open Source.
(Despite one rather sick individual who publicly claims the contrary.)

This is hobby level freeware, Mario... It's code I write for myself and every so often I write something my friends end up asking for and I will offer it for free on the website... The source code stays firmly ensconsed on my backup drives, locked in a firebox that's bolted to the floor; it's going noplace.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by adeyblue

You better tell Microsoft that I misappropraited Vista then. And a full copy of Microsoft Student. They've also sent me 2 copies of the XP Powertoys, the last Windows Home Server version, about lebenty billion copies of the Exchange 2000 handbook, various other MS Press books and one of those thick-ass MCSE training kits.

As for the links, you sign up on connect and they wing you an invitation if they want you on the beta. It's the luck of the draw until you have a track record then your chances increase though it's never guaranteed.

---

Thanks....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by adeyblue

You better tell Microsoft that I misappropraited Vista then.

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Very well. I didn't know they did that to Vista too. Microsoft isn't in the habit of providing free software to Technical Beta Testers. To my knowledge Windows 7 and Office 2010 were the first. Knowing now that Vista also had it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by whiteflags

Happy 600th birthday anyway!

To be honest, I haven't tried windows 7 yet, but if you're into confirmation bias, you are not alone, reporting that windows 7 is corrupting things. Although, personally, I always eject my flash drives on the computer before pulling them out. That forces the drive to flush out everything I guess, so I would be interested to know if more people, besides me, do this also.

It may still be a problem with windows 7, but that's just what comes to mind.

---

You guys need to learn math from Ulillillia. 20*40=800.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stevesmithx

You guys need to learn math from Ulillillia. 20*40=800.

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In fact, only one person made a mathematical error; CommonTater was simply misunderstood.

He said he turned 20 for the 40th time... implying that for each year after his 20th birthday, he can still state that he is 20(+) years old.

20 + 40 = 60

This is perhaps more easily understood by a natively non-English speaker as many foreign languages don't ask "how old you are", but rather "how many years you have." He then goes on to explain this, perhaps cryptically, with an "old puzzle" about how jars containing more than an N number of marbles by matter of fact also contain N marbles.

I could have been trying to make an unfunny joke, too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by whiteflags

I could have been trying to make an unfunny joke, too.

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Naaaa... you're jokes are usually pretty funny...
Oh, wait... you mean *deliberately* unfunny...

I tried a schroedinger's, myself. Failed...

Edit: question... does a person keep getting old after they are dead?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mario F.

Edit: question... does a person keep getting old after they are dead?

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yes, ghosts of all ages are notorious for yelling at you to get off their lawn

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mario F.

I tried a schroedinger's, myself. Failed...

Edit: question... does a person keep getting old after they are dead?

---

Well, if you ask Google, then "YES!"

According to their home page today, Edison is 164 years old.

Google

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SlyMaelstrom

Well, if you ask Google, then "YES!"

According to their home page today, Edison is 164 years old.

Google

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Oh my... What an illuminating observation...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SlyMaelstrom

According to their home page today, Edison is 164 years old.

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That's pretty much it.

So, being that death does not stop someone from becoming older, it is safe to say that CommonTater age is in fact over 13 billion years old. Essentially the age of the universe minus those nanoseconds that took for matter to poof into existence.

This whole business the universe goes about every day, recycling matter and all... makes us old.