Software Testing to Programming

I have been doing software testing for about 4 years and I got laid off 6 months ago.The economy is not doing so well so it's almost impossible for me to find another job in QA right now.No matter.I hated QA and I hated feeling inferior to developers.It's not that they made me feel inferior, but I had that feeling of not being on the same level.Maybe that's why I am trying to become a developer.I have been learning C for the past 9 months but I still have so much to learn..btw, thanx to all the people who answer questions on this board cause it helps me a great deal.Here is my plan C -> C++ -> C#(maybe) or Java technologies since I could care less about Java as a language.I would gladly stick to just stick to C and C++ but al the employers require at least 3 languages + various databases.Any of you guys have any input as to how to shorten the learning path? When would be a good time to start working on a project to show your potential employers? Any ideas are greatly appreciated.Thanks.

I think it'll be when you mastered the basic syntax and data types of one language and done like 50 exercies, thats when you'll be starting to do a big project i think.

A general remark for projects, private or for your potential employer, is to keep it small. Projects allways start big, and big projects end up in an unfinished, buggy mess.

Keep it small. Keep it simple. It's waaay better to have a small but perfectly working and well tested application, than a huge, buggy one with features you never even tried.

Keep in mind that employers always wish to have perfect employees with 5 languages and 10 years experience, but those don't exist. Don't hesitate to apply for a job if you think the description fits.

Having a look into ASM makes C and C++ easier because you know what happens behind the scenes. You don't need a working knowledge of it. No sane developer wants to code in ASM. But knowing why is valuable ;)

>..but al the employers require at least 3 languages + various
>databases.

Well, I guess that depends on what kind of employer you're looking for. Ofcourse, when a company is involved in building and/or maintaining databases, you'll need knowledge about it. But there are many other kinds of software. Embedded systems, telecommunications, scientific computing etc. So you should decide what kind of applications and companies are most attractive to you. Doing work you don't like is very demotivating and frustrating.

A project to show your potential employers? Never heard about such. Do you have an education in computer science or software engineering? I agree with nvoigt that you shouldn't hesitate to apply for a job.

In the Netherlands, and I guess most countries of Europe, employers don't just look at the languages you've learned. If you know C, C++ and/or Java, it's okay, but not enough. You are also assumed to know something about software design. Since you've been in QA, I assume you know about software projects management, CMM, SPI and that kind of things.

I don't know in which country you live, but I would recommend you to take an official course in software engineering. Employers like to have people with diploma's, in the Netherlands they do.

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Originally posted by nvoigt
A general remark for projects, private or for your potential employer, is to keep it small. Projects allways start big, and big projects end up in an unfinished, buggy mess.

Keep it small. Keep it simple. It's waaay better to have a small but perfectly working and well tested application, than a huge, buggy one with features you never even tried.

Keep in mind that employers always wish to have perfect employees with 5 languages and 10 years experience, but those don't exist. Don't hesitate to apply for a job if you think the description fits.

Having a look into ASM makes C and C++ easier because you know what happens behind the scenes. You don't need a working knowledge of it. No sane developer wants to code in ASM. But knowing why is valuable ;)

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Well I have done way more than 50 exercises so I guess I might be ready to start tackling something like that.ASM is actually a very good idea.I have been postponing it since I am not really inclined to deal with low level code but it's really unavoidable.:) My project will be short since I am not really ready for something huge just yet.

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Originally posted by Shiro
>..but al the employers require at least 3 languages + various
>databases.

Well, I guess that depends on what kind of employer you're looking for. Ofcourse, when a company is involved in building and/or maintaining databases, you'll need knowledge about it. But there are many other kinds of software. Embedded systems, telecommunications, scientific computing etc. So you should decide what kind of applications and companies are most attractive to you. Doing work you don't like is very demotivating and frustrating.

A project to show your potential employers? Never heard about such. Do you have an education in computer science or software engineering? I agree with nvoigt that you shouldn't hesitate to apply for a job.

In the Netherlands, and I guess most countries of Europe, employers don't just look at the languages you've learned. If you know C, C++ and/or Java, it's okay, but not enough. You are also assumed to know something about software design. Since you've been in QA, I assume you know about software projects management, CMM, SPI and that kind of things.

I don't know in which country you live, but I would recommend you to take an official course in software engineering. Employers like to have people with diploma's, in the Netherlands they do.

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I am in California.They didn't use to require diplomas but it all might have changed with the present recession.I do know quite a bit about Software project management and software design.Of course a couple of classes would not hurt, that's for sure.They didn't use to require projects either during a high-tech boom but now the competition got really intense.It would be interesting to compare job requirements in the US vs.job requirements in Europe.Could you post a sample job description? Of course Dutch employers might be less strict after having lunch in one of those coffee shops in Amsterdam:D Seriously though, formal education in Europe is way superior to that on the US.I don't think anybody can argue with that.

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Seriously though, formal education in Europe is way superior to that on the US.I don't think anybody can argue with that.

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I disagree and I am contemplating whether or not it's worth my time to tell you why I think you're wrong.

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Originally posted by nvoigt

Keep it small. Keep it simple. It's waaay better to have a small but perfectly working and well tested application, than a huge, buggy one with features you never even tried.

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Wow, for some reason that made me think of AOL.

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Originally posted by tim545666

I disagree and I am contemplating whether or not it's worth my time to tell you why I think you're wrong.

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...Or you just can't prove him wrong?

Fine, I'll make a half-assed arguement.
Sorry if this offends anybody, but our UC's are filling up with asians because people from asia are sending their kids here for an education because we have the best schools in the world. Not that I'm saying that's a bad thing, just look at the percentages. If Europe had better formal education, why not go there? I think that many European schools may be better for subjects like languages and art and such (crap that no one needs) while America's schools tend to be better for sciences and such. ***don't flame me for this if I have a false impression on this. Just show me evedence to support your agrument***
Maybe I'm wrong, but from where I stand it seems like it's arguable.

First of all, most of the Asians live here permanently so the percentage of the ones who are foreign students is not that great.Second of all, it could also be due to the fact that US schools are cheaper than their European counterparts.Third, Europe has tighter borders than US.

Yes, they're here permanently but they move here because of the schools. How is our economy so good (well not now but as of a year ago) if our schools are inferior?

how about most of our public schools aren't to great, yet yours aren't either, ours are better because

a. technology (most of the public high schools in my area assign a laptop to each student, costly but go figure)

b. we do have the most prestigeous schools, Yale, Harvard(sp?), Stanford

MIT, CalTech, Harvey Mudd, Princeton, the entire UC system (which was an essential part in engineering the internet), and there's plenty more.

>If Europe had better formal education, why not go there?

Jobs in the USA pay much better than in Europe.

>How is our economy so good (well not now but as of a year >ago) if our schools are inferior?

Is American economy really better then in Europe? I've read in the papers that things like health-care and public education are inferior to Europe. Perhaps it's because the USA spends so much money to military things.

I think it's very hard to compare European and American schools and universities. The American universities are better known than most Europeans, but that doesn't imply they're better.

>I think that many European schools may be better for subjects >like languages and art and such

In Europe especially the British universities are well-known, like the universities of Cambridge and Oxford. I thought that the physician Steven Hawking worked at the department of theoretical physics at Cambridge.

In the field of mathematics the Ecole Polytechnique of France is quite well-known. France has a rich tradition of mathematics. Lagrange, Fourier, Laplace, Descartes, Poincarree, Galois and all those other mathematicians whose theories we still use.

Also other European scientists had great influence on science. Take for example the Hungarian mathematician Paul Erdos, or German scientists like Riemann, or the Swiss Leonhard Euler. The oldest university of Europe is the one of Estonia.

The reason why America is a little better in technology then Europe is their big spending in military. Military developments require very high level technology. So America is much more stimulating technological developments than Europe.

That's also a reason why many European scientists go to America.
European scientists like Dijkstra, Mandelbrot, Einstein and others went to America.

My opinion: It's only possible to make a good comparison if you have been at both European and American universities.

>Could you post a sample job description?

A translation of the basic job requirements for a programmer (which is the lowest function) at our company:

- Knowledge of methods like SA/SD, Yourdon, OMT
- Knowledge of modelling languages, UML is preferred
- Knowledge of C, C++ and Java
- Knowledge about CMM and Software Process Improvement
- Knowledge about embedded systems
- Speak/read/write English
- Good communication skills

Additional requirements, which in increase your chances of getting a job:

- Knowledge of Design Patterns
- Speak/read/write German and/or French

And ofcourse you'll need to know the things you've learned at college/university, usual things like:

- Operating systems
- Datacommunication
- Digital/analogue electronics
- Digital signal processing
- Computer architecture
- Formal methods
- Datastructures and algorithms
- Discrete mathematics
- Mathematical analysis
- Physics

Note that the several kinds of mathematics and physics are a basic part of Dutch education. Perhaps you'll need them in your job, but that's not for sure.

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Originally posted by Shiro
- Knowledge of C, C++ and Java

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Wouldn't you get marked down for wasting your life on Java?

Well, in Europe the Java language is getting more and more popular, also in the world of embedded systems. So you'll increase your changes on getting a job when you know about Java. That's why I mentioned it.

Though, as I told some weeks ago, there are already a lot of applications of Java in devices. At the company where I am working we created applications in Java for digital televisions, car electronics and mobile phones. The base of the system is written in C++, but the stuff the user meets is in Java.

One of the things we use Java for is remote changing/updating of software. If there's a new version of the Java application for your mobile phone, we just send it to the phone and it's got the latest version.