Thread: Looking for an overview from the Linux experts.

See, I set all my true bits to 1 and all my false bits to 0. I could never do it the other way around.

Originally Posted by grumpy

My problem, now, is that you have stooped to personal attacks over a disagreement.

I?

You're a typical bully. You have now three or four times attacked me after I've posted corrections to your post, and every single time you have been completely unable to acknowledge your error, and instead concentrated your efforts into diverting discussion away from the point. You can dish it, but you can't take it.

It's a good thing you'll ignore me, because now I don't have to try to be overly polite when pointing the errors in your suggestions in an effort to keep the discussion on point. (Which, admittedly, has been a complete waste of time on my part, because you seem to confuse politeness with weakness in argument.)

For the other members: I stand behind my words. I try to be polite, but do not mistake it for weakness of argument. I don't think I made any personal attack, as I am genuinely worried about grumpy's behaviour.

Good thing this forum has ignore list support.

Sorry Nominal, after actually reading this post grumpy's comments were never rude. Up until you mentioned politeness, the whole argument seemed pretty civil.

Originally Posted by MutantJohn

Sorry Nominal, after actually reading this post grumpy's comments were never rude.

What part of "You're still wrong" when I haven't made any error did you not understand.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. I have better things to do than waste my time with idiots.

I thought we were friends, Nominal. And, dude, people have a right to argue with you without you being so condescending about how you think you're right.

Just mellow out and keep in mind that the only one nerd raging here is you. Does the phrase mad cause bad mean anything to you?

I don't like to taunt you but I thought you were cool, man. I looked up to you and in this topic, you really let me down.

Cool? I despise cool, and all other social games. I've told you that point blank in a PM.

I despise those who play social games -- word games, subtle evasion, and other forms of manipulating the discussion in order to retain "face" -- even more.

Grumpy is an excellent example: he has experience worth listening to, but will never admit to any errors. Instead, he will expend considerable effort in evasive tactics, or, if evasive tactics fail, just ignore the criticism. His advice, when wrong, leads readers astray. Because of his experience, readers have no way of telling when he is right. Someone else, down the timeline, will get to pick up the pieces and try to fix the erroneous concepts the reader adopts. I hate that.

This was the third or fourth time this happened between us, even after I tried hard to avoid it (by being as polite as I can, even if my efforts send some members rolling in laughter), so I got very, very frustrated.

There are three things of value in these forums:

1. Interesting problems
   
2. New ideas
   (There is always stuff to learn, new ways to look at things.)
   
3. Verifiable information
   (Experience, and especially experience with how things do not work out)

I used to be a member at LinuxQuestions.org, but left because of certain moderators who felt that newcomers who send "send me teh codez, plz" or homework questions should not be ridiculed. I never ridicule those who lack knowledge, but I do ridicule and insult those who are lazy, incompetent, exploit or manipulate others for their own gain, or refuse to acknowledge their own errors. I can't help it, it's a personal fault I'd avoid if I could.

I also took a bit of a hiatus from cprogramming.com, when I found how little it mattered to other members whether the advice given has the correct subtext, and how only the short term gains (getting the question at hand answered) are all that matters.
I came back because I decided solving interesting problems was worth more to me.

You, MutantJohn, have shown me that the "social site" aspects are more important than anything I value here. I don't know how my tone is condescending, because I'm the first to admit I make errors, quite likely more than grumpy does. But I make damn sure everyone knows when I've made an error, because I don't want to lead anyone astray or to propagate my errors. My frustration is genuine and honest.

It seems my values are completely at odds with those of these forums. Therefore, I am also in the wrong here in general: I should not have gotten frustrated at grumpy just because he refuses to acknowledge in any way any errors in his suggestions, as that does not matter here. I probably also should not have been so pointy at pointing out vart's bad advice, as the correctness of information is irrelevant here if it causes that much hatred.

This is, first and foremost, a social site.

I'm outta here. Good luck -- and honestly, no hard feelings; I'm fully aware I'm the odd one out,

Nominal Animal

It's very interesting hear you speak like this, Nominal. And what's even more, I can't honestly believe you behave like this at opposition to what you believe.

So you and grumpty disagree, who cares? The OP hasn't come back meaning his questions are answered. He said his piece, you said yours and normally we call this a conversation or a sharing of ideas. But oh no, he disagreed with you so that's cause to never come back! You guys are arguing over stupid true-false statements which is ridiculously inane, especially when it's escalated this far.

Now here's the thing, Nominal, real life is social. I don't know what world you live in but you have to interact with people all the time. Is this how you treat real life? Someone can't possibly understand your version of something so you rage quit?

You know why I'm so disappointed in you? It's because you showed you're basically a rager. You're that guy in DotA or HoN who rage afk's just because the game got tough even though I'm the level 21 Mortred with 400 gpm and an Abyssal Blade and you're a level 15 Pugna who'd be lucky to break 200 gpm and hasn't even warded once the whole game.

Your post was fine until you got on grumpy for normally being so educated but still making such ignorant claims. You don't even follow your own advice and won't let your code speak for you. If anything, if he was really wrong, you should've showed him and then replace it with something that worked which I guess you did but you kind of **** all over anything you said with your comments at the end.

I looked up to you, man. You were a physicist and I'm a baby one and you really helped me out in the beginning. You showed me how to make tetrahedrons and it's because of you that I am where I am now. You have no idea how much it hurts me to learn that my hero is basically a giant ****.

Whether you were right or he was wrong, I expected better. And if you really think the social aspect of life is something you can omit then you will find yourself very alone and I don't think you deserve that so you must learn to let love in. Or get a girlfriend or something, shoot.

Originally Posted by MutantJohn

So you and grumpty disagree, who cares?

That is exactly the thing that so much frustrates me. This is exactly what I mean by "social site".

If we were talking about politics or opinions, it would not matter. However, we're talking about mathematics. I'm here to discuss facts and verifiable information, not "opinions". Opinions are interesting if you have a basis for them, otherwise they're worth a fart in the wind, and I for one would rather not read such at all. Getting brainfarts from people whose knowledge I can respect, and them acting like it doesn't stink, is utterly frustrating and infuriating to me.

Look at the post #10 onwards, and test the expressions. If you trust that the expressions are equivalent, and replace one with the other, the behaviour of your program changes. Instead of having any acknowledgment of that, the responses I got ignored the argument, and just veered off towards spewing more untrue statements. None of this evoked any reaction from anyone else.

I care about the facts, and I cannot express how disgusting I find labeling them as "opinions".

Because this is a social site, verifiable facts do not matter here. Social interaction trumps facts. Instead of pointing out falsehoods, you have to "agree to disagree".

Originally Posted by MutantJohn

Now here's the thing, Nominal, real life is social. I don't know what world you live in but you have to interact with people all the time.

I spend my social life in actual reality, where I do not miss the 90% of information (the bulk being nonverbal communication).

I am not discussing with you for social reasons. I were here to help, find and solve new and interesting problems, and share and develop new ideas I wouldn't get elsewhere. To collaborate, not make friends. This is also why I use a pseudonym instead of my real name online.

Originally Posted by MutantJohn

If anything, if he was really wrong, you should've showed him and then replace it with something that worked which I guess you did but you kind of [crapped] all over

Don't you see? "Yes, you're right, but it does not matter because you were a phallus."

If it leads to facts not being hidden or labeled as "just an opinion", I'll be a phallus no matter how much it hurts.

Originally Posted by MutantJohn

it hurts me to learn that [you're] a giant [phallus]

What you learned is that I did not lie when I told you I refuse to play social games. I value facts and verifiable information more than the expected niceties.

Yours is a human world. I choose to try to see the brutal reality instead, if I can, even if it makes me less of a person.

Originally Posted by MutantJohn

Whether you were right or he was wrong, I expected better.

And I refuse to value opinions over facts, or the presentation over content. I choose the brutal reality over human perceptions every time.

Originally Posted by MutantJohn

you must learn to let love in

You cannot love over the internet. If you think you can, I don't think you have really experienced the 90% of nonverbal communications humans use. (If you're lucky, you'll one day find yourself on a trip where you can spend some time alone, away from other humans and all media and social sites, and really get to know someone. It it's physically a bit difficult, say trekking or hot or cold or scary, I promise you it is an experience that will change you.)

I hope that someday, you and others learn how much of that which you believe exists in virtual realities like social sites and online multiplayer games, is actually only internal to yourself. A lie you tell to yourself. That while you think you are forming connections and interacting with people, most of it is internal to your mind; very few of the people you think you know are actually anything like your mental image of them.

To me, the only sensible use for internet is collaboration and the dissemination of information and entertainment.



All said, I do acknowledge that within the context of this site (or any other social site), your (grumpy, vart, MutantJohn, probably all who read this thread) reaction is right and mine is wrong. And that is the reason why I think I should not participate anymore. There is not a shred of rage or ill will on my part -- I am perfectly aware that grumpy and vart and you and others are completely different persons in real life than the mental image I have of you; raging against "you" would be raging against something that only exists in my mind, and is only loosely based on reality --, only a small bit of sadness, as now I need to get my fix of interesting problems elsewhere.