Thread: Opinions on Brexit?

  1. #31
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarin View Post
    You're making my point for me. Why would you as a nation choose to stay in an organization that's giving you the shaft? Perhaps Portugal should have exited. Greece really should have exited.

    You should [exit]. You'd be better for it.
    Because the EU is about a whole lot more than the problems it currently faces, Yarin. It is about an united Europe, a peaceful Europe. A Europe that works together to solve its problems and face the challenges of an increasingly economic and political hostile world. An Europe that needs to face its dependency of the Russian oil pipeline or the increasingly dominant Chinese economy in the face of the dwindling and indebted American economy. You don't solve those problems by following an isolationist pattern and turn tail when things don't go you way. Things have never gone the Portuguese way, or the Spanish way, or the Greek way, but along with all the other state members, especially those for whom the option to leave was put on the table, the decision was always that in face of all the problems inside the EU we are still better working together than on our own way.

    You may be irritated about lack of border control, about an apparent lack of sovereignty, about restrictions to your economy. Regardless of how much of that you consider so important to your life that demands this radical decision, it still faces the fact that is just a small portion of what an united europe can represent to the countries that accept to be a part of it. As a citizen of this Europe I can work to make it better from within. Not from the outside. As soon as I leave I won't be able to do that anymore. And you left, washing your hands of 40 years of policies you helped implement and that now you call out against, and telling everyone who cares to listen you don't care about this whole idea of an united europe. Let someone else do it, we are out.

    It's not by mere chance that you found your biggest supporter oversees in the figure of Donald Trump, who hailed your decision as "Excellent news!". His isolationist and radical nationalistic speech is only matched by the communists and the ultra-nationalists, all extreme wings that within the European countries are the only ones raising their voices against the EU. It's them who think that "Alone we stand, united we fall".

    You seem to think your sovereignty is being questioned because of the open borders policies, but you don't push for changes within the EU, you leave.
    You seem to think that trade agreements that benefited you for decades are now penalizing you, but you don't push for changes within EU, you leave.
    You seem to think those leading the EU are not your legitimate representatives, but you don't push for changes within EU, you leave.
    You turn tail and leave. Instead of working to change the Europe you belong to you adopt a pure isolationist approach.

    And yet, I still have to see one argument, a genuine argument that any of these things are actually damaging England.
    - Your government thinks not. They are resigning en masse.
    - A large sector of your population thinks not too and are petitioning for a fairer popular consultation.
    - Scotland thinks not and is preparing for a referendum on independence from England.
    - Gibraltar thinks not where 19,000 voted For EU and 800 against.

    It's just a certain political party in your parliament that successfully pushed a radical and ultra nationalist speech out of the door and that lead to a 52% final result and a low turnout. So blind you are for your idea that you won (what exactly you won you can't even describe precisely) that you even fail to realize your country is completely divided on this matter and should not take radical steps without a more clear popular decision. The only reason you decide to ignore the low turnout and the marginal win is because it serves your purpose.

    Farrage had this to say when the final results where coming to a close: "Will get our country back, our independence back and our borders back". You must be very proud to align yourself with this cheap populist and radical speech about an European organization that no one but you thinks is questioning its member states sovereignty.

    Face it! You, Salem and others fell to the populist and radical speech, ala Donald Trump, that preys on people's fears and yet tells them nothing of how exactly they future will be and what exactly the alternative measures are. Except that there will be walls. May your wages increase and all Brits be more rich, with plenty of job opportunities, healthier and safer with your decision.
    Last edited by Mario F.; 06-27-2016 at 12:01 PM.
    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  2. #32
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    Quoted from Slashdot (UK Tech Sector Reacts To Brexit: Some Anticipate Slow Down, Some Contemplate Relocation - Slashdot

    I can't share the exact quote with you, but my girlfriend is a Dr in a London hospital department. Her lab basically tells you if you have cancer if you are one of the millions of people who live in or around London.

    In her department, which requires high-end medically-skilled professionals, her boss posted after Brexit. The basic gist was "Don't worry, everyone, your cancer diagnosis will still be safe in the hands of our department consisting almost entirely of Spanish, Italian, German, French, Polish, Greek, ...... personnel for the time being".

    Throughout the NHS the picture is the same. Majority EU and then Non-UK workers. Or universities. Almost all the major universities have majority non-UK lecturers and professors (which actually means something here - a professor is a much higher grade of personnel than in the US, you'll be incredibly lucky to meet a professor outside of academia).

    And it's not just as simple as "things will carry on". My girlfriend came over as an EU citizen. She has "leave to remain", so she can stay and live and work in the UK. But to get permanent citizenship, she would have to marry or go through a lengthy immigration process (including a stupid test asking questions about kings and queens that I, as a natural Brit, would be baffled by). Coming out of the EU could revoke that leave to remain. Nobody's sure at the moment and we only have two years to work that out.

    If that's taken away, or the paperwork involved in heinous, or even if the process that's required is overwhelmed by all the EU people working in the UK suddenly applying to stay here, then you have quite a situation that is an awful lot of effort to sit through. And they are already disgusted and feeling unwanted because of the Brexit vote.

    It's like a state voting itself out of the USA. Imagine how you'd feel as the out-of-state worker who's just been voted against, made to feel unwelcome, contemplating being in a "foreign" state, and may have to jump through all kinds of hoops to carry on your normal life that you've had for YEARS.

    We're going to lose an awful lot of talent, from students coming to our universities to the lecturers teaching them, from the waitresses on minimum wages to the doctors earning a fortune. And there's no way that it will become a zero-paperwork process for any of the above, which just adds costs and hassle.

    We're now basically a foreign country. If you're American you may not understand that - do you have automatic right to live in any other country in the world? Because before the vote, we have had that guaranteed for decades. We can just up sticks, go to Sweden and start up a life like anyone else, without even bothering with paperwork or visas.

    We've (potentially) just thrown that in the bin, which means a lot of people who found that convenient and wanted to live in Britain are now unwelcome and may be forced to leave, or put under such scrutiny that they decide to go to one of the other dozens of countries just 30 miles away, where they don't have any of that hassle.

    Watch the NHS, education, and the large businesses. They're all about to suffer, even if they don't immediately collapse.
    Had no idea about the EU (non-UK) people working in the UK...that's crap.

  3. #33
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epy View Post
    Had no idea about the EU (non-UK) people working in the UK...that's crap.
    Glad you asked. Because I'm finally given a chance to speak in UK favor in all this mess.

    Schengen Agreement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    It's an old agreement that has been evolving through the years and was eventually fully incorporated into the EU. It comprises the so-called 'open borders policy'. It has two fundamental effects:
    1. Any EU citizen can travel freely within the EU, without visas or border checks.
    2. Any EU-foreign citizen wishing to enter the EU region is granted a Schengen Visa that gives that citizen the right to travel freely within the EU. So you don't get a Visa to Spain when you want to go to Spain. You get a Schengen Visa that allows you to go to Spain and spend the remainder of your vacations in Italy. That's how you travel to the EU for the last 15 years or so.

    Note that the UK belongs to the opt-out group. They are not formally a part of the Schengen region (see that link map for an appraisal) and can decide to participate or not. Historically UK has been participating. You may wonder though, why is the UK claiming the loss of their borders when they can just opt-out? The answer is that it is unfortunately not that simple. UK wants to participate but with certain limitations. This is particularly important in the current climate of terrorist threats and the predominant position the UK takes in the War Against Terror. We cannot forget the 2005 London Bombings (although we cannot forget also the many other attacks on European soil, like the Charlie Hebdo shooting, the Madrid Commuter bombings, or the very recent Brussels bombing).

    There's a growing feeling within UK and many other countries of the EU that EU security agencies are either incompetent, insufficiently equipped or downright incapable of dealing with the growing threat. This is aggravated by the feeling that the EU bureaucratic representatives aren't doing enough to implement more rigid policies.

    On the particular case of security, UK wished to remain a participant of the Schengen space, but in the context of their opt-out status implement certain measures to limit entry. The problem is that the current law limits the whole matter to either acceptance or refusal of the opt-out countries and gives UK no room for altering or lobbying for alteration of the legislation. What EU is essentially telling UK is this: "You cannot just be a Schengen member and impose limitations. You are either fully in or fully out of the Schengen space. Oh and btw, we don't wantt to hear to your proposals for change. Now, leave us alone."

    This battle has been going on for a while and it's been a major source of aggravation particularly to the conservative sector of the UK society. As the years moved on UK has been gaining some alies. Spain, Germany, some eastern countries and just recently Italy have been vocal about supporting changes to the Schengen rules to implement tighter border controls in the vein of what UK has been asking for a long time. Other countries remain stubborn.
    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevesmithx View Post
    Anyone knows why the media couldn't call it "British Exit" but instead resort to the semi-abbreviated form "Brexit" ?
    #Brexit sounds cooler than #BritishExit LoL

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    I think Britain's vote for Brexit has major implications, and will likely cause more harm than good.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by argoneur View Post
    I think Britain's vote for Brexit has major implications, and will likely cause more harm than good.
    In the short term, for sure. Long term effects are too unpredictable to even venture a guess. Personally, I think being an independent and sovereign nation is superior to belonging to a club run by unelected elites.

    I've heard some people say that Brexit is tantamount to infringing workers' rights, destroying the environment, and racial discrimination. Simply because the EU has laws about those things, it does not mean that leaving the EU will implicitly negate those laws. Those laws are still on the books in the UK, but Britain now has the option of adjusting them to better suit their own needs, rather than simply obeying what the EU forces upon them.
    What can this strange device be?
    When I touch it, it gives forth a sound
    It's got wires that vibrate and give music
    What can this thing be that I found?

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    Think of the elite like this. All their life their parents worked hard sacrificing much for their children. These children goes to the top Ivy League schools, etc. Then there are the other kids who just like to play around instead of work. Is it fair to give the hard work produce of the hard working parents and kids to the ones who mess around?

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    I remember I went to an Ivy League College. All my life I saw my parents suffered much just for us. Then one day I decided to be a fool and go around giving my parents wealth away like it grew on trees. Well I'll tell you what if I was my parents I'd kill me!

  9. #39
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    It is okay to help out and not sacrifice your parents blessing!

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    It is not okay to give your parents money away to strangers!!!

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tien Nguyen View Post
    It is not okay to give your parents money away to strangers!!!
    How is babby formed? - YouTube

  12. #42
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    it is a huge mistake, it will likely cause more harm than good.

  13. #43
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    This will just make things worse.

  15. #45
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevesmithx View Post
    I enjoyed the talk. But as a liberal internationalist myself, I didn't like his implied idea that xenophobia and nationalism are born of ignorance and poor education. This can't be further from the truth, as nationalism itself is considered a valid (and desirable) path in many political circles and is an usual flag for conservative political denominations, as well as that of the extreme left and right. So when the suggestion is made that we fight nationalism with a better educational system, he is simply barking at the wrong tree. No well educated conservative nationalist in power, who has spent his time studying and embracing the ideology, is ever going to support a liberal globalization agenda in their educational system. It's like betraying one's own beliefs. It's nonsense to him. And in a different way, it is also a nonsense to me. I wouldn't expect an opposing faction to fight for my ideals.

    Instead nationalists (and xenophobes, although both aren't the same), can be well educated. And many are. Despite their ideology being completely alien to mine, I can still understand its existence and its place in our societies from both a cultural, political and historical perspective. Likewise liberals, and liberal internationalists, can lack education as anyone else. The line between nationalism and liberal internationalism isn't drawn by the educational level of the people involved. So, when among the post-voting statistics he mentions (but didn't show) that the old and uneducated voted for leaving, and that the young and educated voted for staying or didn't participate in the voting at all, I say hogwash! That can only signify a correlation and it would take an serious effort to convince me this to be the case.

    The British decision can only be explain by a successful campaign of the brexiters in contrast to an appallingly poor and disorganized campaign of the stay side. The brexiters committed entirely to their cause, along with all sorts of false promises and the kind of nationalist speech that cuts deep into a society that has been facing all the modern problems of insecurity and terrorism, but also the rise in criminality, the reduction of job security and wages, and rise in cost of living. What the brexiters didn't say is that none of this will solve their problems, because U.K. has always remaining in charge of their destiny and their politics, and that the EU was just an escape goat to cleanse the cultural memory of a British society that is has failed as any other modern western society; incapable of caring and providing for its citizens.

    The stay side on the other hand had a poor disastrous campaign. Riddled it too with false promises, but in contrast to the brexiters, lacking any inspirational ideology capable of addressing the concerns of the British common man and woman.

    Why? Because Alexander is right when he says that the liberal agenda has been taken over by a certain elite for it own use and benefit. The EU is a sad joke of parading politicians no one knows and politics no one understands. The worst the European political society has to offer has taken hold of the EU chief chairs. Boring, tasteless, colorless politicians, lacking any inspirational habilities or any notion of their responsibilities, instead on what matters to their own interests. But in fact this is a representation of the whole of the European political society; nor the brexiters should be expecting a nation savior or an inspirational hero in the upcoming elections. Just another crude representative of their own decaying society to lead them for the next years. The problems they face on a daily basis will remain. Their "independence" is just going to meet the same faces that suckled on the EU tits for the past 40 years; or we would not be knowing such distinguished Brexiters like Farrage that has been collecting an EU parliament salary for the past 17 years without so much complaining about it.

    And it is this lack of good politicians and the worse ones taking sit on the EU, that has made the EU what it is today. A sad and pathetic representative of a dream that is no longer true. A house of misery and constant dissent, lead by national, personal or business interests and none of the joint principles of the European society that once was taught to be its foundational source. As an example to the sort of people that make up the EU, the current president of the European Commission is José Manuel Barroso. He had been the Portuguese elected Prime Minister for only 2 years, when he took the chair at the EUC, abandoning the duties he had been elected for (in exchange of a better payed and more prestigious job) and sending Portugal politics to an all-time crisis that lead to a disastrous governing period of 2 years by his second. So disastrous in fact, that it allowed the election of a certain José Sócrates for Prime Minister who is the person responsible for the huge deficit of the Portuguese finances that tumbled the country into its largest financial crisis in history (forcing me to leave Portugal, when my business sank and left me with nothing) and still facing today the consequences. And what's more, without so much a vote for a single european citizen, José Manuel Barroso, was president of the EUC for 10 years.

    So, these are the type of Liberals that are taking hold of western politics. Just like with the USA, where the same elite took hold of these principles and distorted them into a self-serving political agenda that can no longer represent the interests of the people and where the people can't find a thread they recognize as worth fighting for, the European society has been over the past two decades birthing an extreme right founded on ultra-nationalistic principles, sending us back to the 20th century xenophobe and border-happy Europe. The same type of Europe we were trying to fix in the first place. The type of Europe that generated two world wars and countless local conflicts and by no means alleviated its own citizens with a good life.
    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

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