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Is George correct?

This is a discussion on Is George correct? within the General Discussions forums, part of the Community Boards category; Guardian - english newspaper , about the stolen marbles of Acropolis. (Notice, the article refferes only to the marbles stolen ...

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    SAMARAS std10093's Avatar
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    Is George correct?

    Guardian - english newspaper, about the stolen marbles of Acropolis. (Notice, the article refferes only to the marbles stolen by Elgin from the Parthenon, not the other (many in number) unique ancient pieces of art and architecture Elgin stolen.)
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    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    If they could have been proven to have been stolen... perhaps. But there is no such proof.

    Anyways, is this by any chance election time in Greece? Because the last time I remember the marbles being discussed was in an European Summit when Tony Blair and your then Prime Minister Costas Simitis were caught on camera in a perfect dialog that resumed the artistic and cultural value of the marbles. It went like this: "I would like to discuss with you about the marbles … as you know we have elections next year in Greece. This could be useful." -- Costas Simitis
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    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

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    SAMARAS std10093's Avatar
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    >If they could have been proven to have been stolen... perhaps. But there is no such proof.
    Yeah, they just flied away from Greece to England. Come on Mario. This must be the most wrong sentence in the internet today.

    >elections
    Yep, not for the prime minister, but for mayor and european ones. The second political party asks (well, this party asks for elections in a arate of 15 days) for main elections too, but there is nothing scheduled yet. However, I do not think that anything is going to be made again. The poll is 88% votes yes for the marbles to return, but so what? They will remain there.

    Of course the discussion for the marbles, beguns only when some way of profit is to be made. Unfortunately, not for the true reasons that are actually related with the priceless meaning of them, etc., but in order the people that initiate it to be promoted. Now I do not think that this is for the elections, since all this started in order a movie (I think that George is acting in it) to be promoted. However, you are 100% about the elections profit, so you will get my like (but really your first sentence is ....).

    The purpose that I posted is, is it better for the marbles to remain there? I am probably not judging objectively, since I am Greek (I voted yes).

    Is it really your first sentence the most silly sentence today in the internet? Maybe not, since what you may mean, is that Elgin's action were legal. Well this is true, but they were aproved by the Otomans, which had conquered Greece for about 400 years.
    The British museum site itself states:
    "By 1800 only about half of the original sculptural decoration remained. Between 1801 and 1805 Lord Elgin, the British ambassador to the Ottoman Empire, of which Athens had been a part for some 350 years, acting with the full knowledge and permission of the Ottoman authorities, removed about half of the remaining sculptures from the fallen ruins and from the building itself. Lord Elgin was passionate about ancient Greek art and transported the sculptures back to Britain. The arrival of the sculptures in London had a profound effect on the European public, regenerating interest in ancient Greek culture and influencing contemporary artistic trends. These sculptures were acquired from Lord Elgin by the British Museum in 1816 following a Parliamentary Select Committee enquiry which fully investigated and approved the legality of Lord Elgin’s actions. Since then the sculptures have all been on display to the public in the British Museum, free of entry charge."

    Try google, you will find many sources (reliable and not). For example wikipedia and Biritsh Museum.

    To return back to my to my purpose of posting, as mentioned by the British museum site, the marbles are displayed there free of entry charged. Moreover, the state of the British museum is stable. I mean, one can assume that the museum will run fine in many years from now. In Greece, the new Acropolis musem is built and yes, it is one of the most modern ones in Europe (I have visited many museums around the world, it really is), but the condition in Greece is not stable.

    I have the feeling that you really think that these actions (of Elgin) were not stealing. Sorry, but I must unlike your post.
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    C++ Witch laserlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by std10093
    >If they could have been proven to have been stolen... perhaps. But there is no such proof.
    Yeah, they just flied away from Greece to England. Come on Mario. This must be the most wrong sentence in the internet today.
    Quote Originally Posted by std10093
    Is it really your first sentence the most silly sentence today in the internet? Maybe not, since what you may mean, is that Elgin's action were legal. Well this is true, but they were aproved by the Otomans, which had conquered Greece for about 400 years.
    Therefore, it is reasonable to state that there is no proof that the artifacts were stolen. That statement can be disputed since the legal owners of the artifacts at the time did not have cultural ownership over them, having taken ownership by force centuries prior, but your claim that "this must be the most wrong sentence in the internet today" is most certainly false.
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    Registered User Hodor's Avatar
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    I think it's more likely that the artifacts were stolen and then copied with a 3d printer and the copies returned.
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    SAMARAS std10093's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by laserlight View Post
    Therefore, it is reasonable to state that there is no proof that the artifacts were stolen. That statement can be disputed since the legal owners of the artifacts at the time did not have cultural ownership over them, having taken ownership by force centuries prior, but your claim that "this must be the most wrong sentence in the internet today" is most certainly false.
    yep....
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    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Welcome to Europe. The continent of centuries old foreign occupations and thousands year old cultural amalgamation. With a very small exception of European countries, the truth of the matter is that no modern society in Europe can claim historical ownership over European cultural heritage on anything but the fact they currently reside there. That is, the real reason it is so difficult for a museum in Greece, or Spain, or Italy, or Turkey, or even England (yes, they have missing art too) to get their works of art back is because their only real argument for ownership is a geographical one.
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    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

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    SAMARAS std10093's Avatar
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    >England (yes, they have missing art too)
    They have stolen so many pieces of art, that they don't really mind, I guess...

    But yes, it's not the only country that stole art!
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    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    You really like the word stolen. You use it so effectively in making anyone less knowledgeable believe that this is how foreign art is displayed in modern European museums, when in fact it may constitute a very small percentage of the overall collection of any museum in any part of the world.

    And it says nothing about the Parthenon Marbles (notice I don't call them Elgin Marbles, because I do have a shred of decency). While disputed by some scholars, the general consensus is that Elgin transaction with the Ottoman Empire was legit and the pieces were indeed legitimately taken away from Greece.
    Last edited by Mario F.; 02-14-2014 at 02:00 PM.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  10. #10
    SAMARAS std10093's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    You really like the word stolen. You use it so effectively in making anyone less knowledgeable believe that this is how foreign art is displayed in modern European museums, when in fact it may constitute a very small percentage of the overall collection of any museum in any part of the world.

    And it says nothing about the Parthenon Marbles (notice I don't call them Elgin Marbles, because I do have a shred of decency). While disputed by some scholars, the general consensus is that Elgin transaction with the Ottoman Empire was legit and the pieces were indeed legitimately taken away from Greece.
    Ottomans conquered Greece that time.
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    Registered User MutantJohn's Avatar
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    Conquering is pretty legit, imo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by std10093 View Post
    Ottomans conquered Greece that time.
    You seem to believe that a conquering empire taking something from a country they have conquered is illegitimate. It is not.

    If the items are removed (or allowed to be removed) by a government at the time, it is generally considered legally legitimate. That doesn't change for a conqueror - the usual requirement is that they establish government, not how they achieved it.

    Yes, inhabitants of conquered countries will claim otherwise, particularly after an unpopular government has been overthrown, conquerors have departed, etc. That does not make it so.

    A large proportion of countries (and parts of countries) in Europe, the Middle East, and Asia have been conquered and re-conquered at various times in their history. People living in any country today like to believe they own it, but the reality is often that they are descendents of (earlier) conquering forces themselves. Using a yardstick based on whether a country was conquered is therefore unworkable - there would be claims and counterclaims going back as far as recorded history. The yardstick for legitimacy of actions is therefore more linked to having governed (with various criteria to distinguish between governing, temporary occupation, etc etc) not to the government having got there by conquering.
    Last edited by grumpy; 02-14-2014 at 04:05 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MutantJohn View Post
    Conquering is pretty legit, imo.
    I agree, certainly in a historical context, when right of conquest was widely accepted, and was roughly "you kicked their ass, so you can do whatever you want to their land, people and property". At the time the Ottomans conquered Greece, it was acceptable for them to take possession of the Parthenon Marbles and more. Sucks (mostly for the Greeks), but it is what it is (or was what it was). Trying to right all the known wrongs of history is neither practical nor possible, especially considering many of those actions were considered acceptable in their day*.

    That right still exists, but nowadays, conquering a country doesn't go over so well with the international community, nor do I personally think it's okay to run around fighting people for no good reason, or so you can take their land/people/property.

    Do keep in mind, too, all the stuff Greece stole when they conquered places -- Alexander conquered territory down into Africa and clear into the Indus valley, and there were other Greek conquerors too. I highly doubt Greece gave all that back. Most would argue that was too long ago. So where do we draw this imaginary line of "return things acquired after this date"?

    That being said, I would like to see many of the art and artifacts returned to their homes, but I don't think it can ever be as simple as "just give it all back". Sure, that may work for some things that were truly stolen, but for things that, under the laws and customs of the time, were rightfully acquired, it gets complicated. Perhaps some sharing situation could be worked out, or a long-term lease/buy-back program? Besides, it's not like Greece (or any country in Europe, for that matter) is really lacking for ancient artifacts.

    * Imagine applying such principles to other outdated laws. Dueling to the death used to be legal many places, but now is not. Should reparations be paid to the descendants of a duel loser, by the descendants of the duel winner? I suspect most people would think that is a crazy notion.
    Last edited by anduril462; 02-14-2014 at 05:04 PM. Reason: minor wording fixes

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    Unregistered User Yarin's Avatar
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    "stolen", "legit", "right", are bad words to be using in a discussion like this, because they're only useful in the context of an authority. When a government is conquered and a new one established, these words become meaningless in the wider scope.
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    SAMARAS std10093's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpy View Post
    You seem to believe that a conquering empire taking something from a country they have conquered is illegitimate. It is not.
    Well no. I do not think that because Ottomans conquered Greece, they own the Greek monuments and because English people....are English people, they buy it. We do not talk about something regular here, but unique ancient pieces of art in the mankind. This is not something that can be bought or whatever. It's just awful to hear people talk about them as Elgin marble's...

    I mean, it's like Great Alexander, when he expanded Greece, by conquering most of the "known world" then, he sure took pieces of art, by legit methods as you say, since he conquered all the land that these were located into. I do not think that this correct. I believe that Alexander the Great stole these pieces of art. However, I do not know if he really took something that valueable from all these "countries" he conquered.

    Monuments like Acropolis, Pyramids, etc. are unique and mankind inheritange. I think that they should be respected. If Elgin could take the whole Acropolis back to England, he would sure do! I am pretty sure that is the case for the Pyramids too. More to say.........

    BUT

    again the thread is not going to what I am asking. But that's ok, that's internet. :P
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