Gamers on Steam

[VirtualAce]

I've been involved in major discussions over X-Rebirth over on Steam. Lots of gamers claiming this and that and then trying to prove the code is bad or is single threaded or multi-threaded, etc. The game is broken for sure but some of the comments as to why are quite hilarious. I'm trying to interject some reality, technical knowledge and temperance into the discussions to no avail.

I have never seen such bad information on one forum. Why is it that gamers think they know programming after playing a game? Why is it that they feel they can make rude comments about the developer's skills or make assumption about what went on during development or about the architecture of the game? We all know there are many many meetings and many many decisions made during development of any software. Why do gamers believe they can make factual comments about any of it when they have no experience creating software and were not on any of the teams that created their game?

It baffles my mind.

This might sound stupid and far-fetched but I read an article about gamer abuse of developers and studios being an increasing problem. Apparently death threats were made to those who designed Dragon Age 2 b/c of their design decisions. Other developers and studios have simply quit the industry b/c they are tired of dealing with the gamer community. Where did all of this go wrong?

Anyone else had a similar experience in other gaming forums or perhaps in mobile app development?

[Elysia]

Well, this kind of thing happens everywhere, does it not? Some people are overly vocal--they think that some people must be punished because "the other people" cannot live up to their ideals.
A lot of people are also ignorant: how often haven't you heard someone gossip about how "bad" things are, and it would have been better if X or Y had been done instead? Yet, they often do not know why it was done in way Z and the reasons behind it. If they did, their opinions would probably change. Of course, that's just one of the many groups of people out there.
It's sad, though, but it is life, and we just have to live with ignoring those people.

[Hodor]

I'm not sure how to answer your question. But, seriously, it's a very boring and buggy game. Bugs will be fixed (maybe), but I'm not sure how they're going to make it less boring. Not every application/game can be a huge success.

[VirtualAce]

I guess I should ignore them but it is very hard to when so much bad info abounds. Also do not understand why the mods let it occur. We would never let that happen here.

But, seriously, it's a very boring and buggy game.

Buggy yes. Boring is subjective. I do not find it boring. But regardless of that comments about devs and the studio in my opinion are out of line. A little knowledge is a very dangerous thing. Code is complex. Games are complex. To comment without having the source, design docs, architecture docs and a debugger to run it in is a little irreponsible. One can say they dislike the game - that is fine. One cannot then move on to how the architecture is awful and the FPS are terrible b/c of X, Y and Z. Then there are threads that call for the company to go under, jokes about RIFs starting, etc. It's pretty ugly.

But then I find other game forums on Steam have the same type of people commenting. Apparently all gamers know how to program games b/c they act like it in the forums. Pretty disgraceful.

[whiteflags]

But, seriously, it's a very boring and buggy game.

Not as boring as programming it for a few months evidently.

I don't judge code I haven't looked at. I guess I'm following the dictum of be the change you want to see in the world.

[Elysia]

But then I find other game forums on Steam have the same type of people commenting. Apparently all gamers know how to program games b/c they act like it in the forums. Pretty disgraceful.

Also keep in mind that for everyone who comments, there are tons of others who are simply lurking. There are a lot of people who understand how hard it is to make a game and thus don't make a disgraceful comment (or any at all). There are also those who do not understand, but believe that there may be reasons for the game being made the way it is, but again, don't comment on the fact. It is said that it is a minority of the people who are the vocal ones, because the people who enjoy the game don't comment.

[VirtualAce]

It is said that it is a minority of the people who are the vocal ones, because the people who enjoy the game don't comment.

Hehe. So true. I have 86 hours in the game and have reported various bugs in detailed fashion with steps to reproduce. Hopefully they get addressed but none of them are killing the game for me. Most commenting either don't own the game (yes the mods let them comment too) or have less than 10 hours in it. At the end of the day its just a game.

Beyond this instance have you experienced this in any of your projects? I would imagine as we developers become far less removed from our customers than we would like thanks to social media and forums this might start to happen more often. I could see this happening in mobile app development more than LOB applications.

[whiteflags]

That is, at most, a comforting thought that has equal probability of being false. It has no bearing on what is actually happening. The point is, that in the real world, a minority of people will break the law, and at least a fraction of those people will be punished through law enforcement. Just like it is proper to complain about a good law that isn't being properly enforced, it is proper to complain about abuse that doesn't stop, and apparently, goes unpunished. The gamer culture for whatever reason is nearly always and everywhere quite unpleasant.

[Elysia]

I haven't been involved in any projects of large enough scale to receive this kind of feedback. Mostly I've just done things for fun, projects for myself, or just doing it because it sounds like a challenge. Haven't released many apps to the wild, though with the few I have, I haven't received any negative feedback.

[Mario F.]

The gamer culture for whatever reason is nearly always and everywhere quite unpleasant.

And this pretty much sums it. Of the... internet cultures?... i'm a part of, none equals the gaming culture in terms of shear rabidness. This has the unpleasant side effect of making it the least enjoyable of all cultures in terms of social interaction. I just hate gaming forums. I really avoid these places like the plague. And the few times when I end up trying my luck, I always draw a short straw. And that's because there's no long straw.

I laugh at someone that tells me, this or that game community is pretty good. The only places where I felt good and worth of my time was in less known games communities. These can be fantastic because they are small and interlopers can be easily shoved away if they stray from the general ambient. Places like Cryptic Comet Games and their excellent Solium Infernum, many of the roguelikes, Dwarf Fortress, are examples of places where one feels ok.

As for the actual game, I don't know Virtual Ace... You always tend to take a pretty relaxed stance concerning bugged releases? There's few things that enervate me more than a bugged released. By bugged I mean, so f* up that the game has to be patched to come playable or enjoyable. I'm no stranger to the pressures of today's market and the fact this happens because the industry needs to stick to a release schedule. But that's their own rule, not mine. releasing an obvious incomplete product is something we seem to take for granted in the gaming industry, but wouldn't accept for one moment in the software industry or, say, the pots and pans industry. Why?

[DeadPlanet]

Well, this kind of thing happens everywhere, does it not? Some people are overly vocal--they think that some people must be punished because "the other people" cannot live up to their ideals.
A lot of people are also ignorant: how often haven't you heard someone gossip about how "bad" things are, and it would have been better if X or Y had been done instead? Yet, they often do not know why it was done in way Z and the reasons behind it. If they did, their opinions would probably change. Of course, that's just one of the many groups of people out there.
It's sad, though, but it is life, and we just have to live with ignoring those people.

To build on your thoughts, I feel like it is also to do with the 'fundamental attribution error' where people will blame their own faults on circumstances but others' faults on their weaknesses.

[MutantJohn]

Do you guys wanna start a DotA 2 group?

[VirtualAce]

I do not play DOTA 2 sorry. I have many many more games I do play and always looking for people to play coop or multi with. Not really into deathmatch. I'm more into team-based games where people have to work together to win.

I'm still posting over on the Rebirth forum and they are coming after me with pitchforks. I'm trying to interject logic into the conversation but they are so 'hurt' by the release they cannot see straight. It is amazing. I'm not trying to post my credentials b/c I do not feel that is right or relevant but sometimes folks irritate me when they assume they understand development when all they understand is 'playing' the game.

They are killing me though. Killing me. I don't think I have any friends. Some are saying the code is bad, blah, blah, blah. I remind them they cannot comment on the code if they have not been exposed to the code. I would never comment on code I have not been exposed to and even with code that I am exposed to often it is best to reserve your comments and channel that energy into something more constructive that will lift the team up instead of tear it down. I'm sure none of us have ever written code that someone else wants to comment on or gets irritated with.

Maybe it comes down to maturity. I'm not sure though because I have friends from all walks and all ages and none of them act like this. It really is astounding. So many times I wish I had my mod powers over there or wish someone would exercise theirs.

[Mario F.]

It may be the product also of mob mentality. It's an unfortunate side effect of the internet (but also a consequence of our inability to think for ourselves when in the presence of a large group of people). People just escalate their comments as they tend to imitate their peers. You could say I despise this psychosocial behavior, but I have found myself caught in its spiral more than once. It's chillingly attractive.

I somehow was reminded of the story of Christopher Hermelin. It's a worthy read.

[grumpy]

I have never seen such bad information on one forum.

You possibly need to spend some more time lurking around here. There is some pretty bad information here on occasion too. Some of that is honest mistakes by knowledgeable people. Some is information that was correct, but has been superseded. Some of that is arrogance of ignorant people who have learned part of something, and think they know it all. And there are even instances of deliberate misinformation.

Admittedly not as frequent or blatant than I have seen in the few gamers forums I've frequented. One reason I don't participate in online games any more, or in such forums. I've recently dropped off one strategy game because of such attitudes. The site itself was good, and I enjoyed dealing with the guys who managed it. The game wasn't perfect, but was pretty good. The personal abuse by other players, ostensibly in the context of game play, was not.

Why is it that gamers think they know programming after playing a game? Why is it that they feel they can make rude comments about the developer's skills or make assumption about what went on during development or about the architecture of the game? We all know there are many many meetings and many many decisions made during development of any software. Why do gamers believe they can make factual comments about any of it when they have no experience creating software and were not on any of the teams that created their game?

That's part of a wider problem in which people who use software think "it's just software", think that software development is a job that doesn't involve skill, and have a very low opinion of software developers - despite the fact the only software development they've done might be a macro or two in a spreadsheet. Because it's easy to use, easy to obtain, they think it is easy to develop.

But that mindset in gamers or in the user base of any software is only part of it. I've seen managers with that sort of attitude about software in charge of large, expensive, important, and critical software projects.

This might sound stupid and far-fetched but I read an article about gamer abuse of developers and studios being an increasing problem. Apparently death threats were made to those who designed Dragon Age 2 b/c of their design decisions. Other developers and studios have simply quit the industry b/c they are tired of dealing with the gamer community. Where did all of this go wrong?

As I said, I think the problem is wider than gamers forums. It is a wider cultural issue. Other aspects include changing educational models (educate people about their rights, but not their responsibilities), legal models (that defend the perpetrator at the expense of the victim), increasing opportunity for anonymity (particularly online, so people can do/say what they want, rather than being held accountable by others).