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interview with Linus

This is a discussion on interview with Linus within the General Discussions forums, part of the Community Boards category; Aalto Talk with Linus Torvalds [Full-length] - YouTube Listen to what he has to say about Linux and NVIDIA....

  1. #1
    Registered User Annonymous's Avatar
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    interview with Linus

    Aalto Talk with Linus Torvalds [Full-length] - YouTube Listen to what he has to say about Linux and NVIDIA.

  2. #2
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    The man is like a child. When something doesn't go like the way he wants, he start pointing fingers and starts shouting foul words at them.
    It is as if the man does not understand that all companies cannot--and will not--use Linux's open source model, which does bring about delays at times.
    antred likes this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.
    For information on how to enable C++11 on your compiler, look here.
    よく聞くがいい!私は天才だからね! ^_^

  3. #3
    &TH of undefined behavior Fordy's Avatar
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    ::shrug::

    I have a lot of respect for the guy...

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    Master Apprentice phantomotap's Avatar
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    It is as if the man does not understand that all companies cannot--and will not--use Linux's open source model, which does bring about delays at times.
    Someone, I'm not saying who, did not bother to understand the complaints.

    Soma
    Yarin and manasij7479 like this.

  5. #5
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    Someone did not bother understand the complaint because the behavior was inexcusable either way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.
    For information on how to enable C++11 on your compiler, look here.
    よく聞くがいい!私は天才だからね! ^_^

  6. #6
    Unregistered User Yarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    Someone did not bother understand the complaint because the behavior was inexcusable either way.
    That's an understandable opinion, but even if everyone shared it, that's not a good reason to dismiss his complaint without bothering to hear it.
    phantomotap likes this.
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    ... kermit's Avatar
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    Elysia is just a Linux hater.
    Annonymous likes this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    It is as if the man does not understand that all companies cannot--and will not--use Linux's open source model, which does bring about delays at times.
    Or perhaps the management at nVidia are just clueless morons?
    How I need a drink, alcoholic in nature, after the heavy lectures involving quantum mechanics.

  9. #9
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarin View Post
    That's an understandable opinion, but even if everyone shared it, that's not a good reason to dismiss his complaint without bothering to hear it.
    Well, let me put it this way:
    I'm not going to comment on whether nVidia have done the right thing or not. I don't really care about what nVidia does concerning Linux. Though, from what I have heard and seen (including above link), it just seems that nVidia cannot open source their drivers due to business secrets, and because of this their support for Linux have been somewhat lacking.
    Nevertheless, I still am not going to agree with Linus's methods. That is why I compared him to a child throwing a tantrum.
    Last edited by Elysia; 06-29-2012 at 03:33 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.
    For information on how to enable C++11 on your compiler, look here.
    よく聞くがいい!私は天才だからね! ^_^

  10. #10
    Master Apprentice phantomotap's Avatar
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    O_o

    Someone still hasn't bothered to understand the complaints.

    I think it is kind of funny, but you not liking his methods is fine.

    You talking about issues you don't understand in terms you don't understand makes you look foolish.

    Because you aren't willing to look at the issues I'll "sum up" without going into a lot of detail: the issue is that "nVidia" did throw support at "Android" (a Linux derivative) embedded devices with their chips in the form proprietary drivers because they wanted the market share but continually refuse to do the same for "Linux" on desktops or laptops where they already have a huge market share.

    This isn't about open source software. The proprietary drivers by "nVidia" for "Linux" sucks.

    Linus doesn't give a damn if companies want to keep drivers proprietary; he doesn't like it, but he does accept it as do we all who work in the field.

    Soma

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    Registered User manasij7479's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantomotap View Post
    This isn't about open source software. The proprietary drivers by "nVidia" for "Linux" sucks.
    Apart from the android part, your too (I think), misunderstood the complaints, depending on what you mean by 'sucks'.
    Manasij Mukherjee | gcc-4.8.2 @Arch Linux
    Slow and Steady wins the race... if and only if :
    1.None of the other participants are fast and steady.
    2.The fast and unsteady suddenly falls asleep while running !



  12. #12
    Master Apprentice phantomotap's Avatar
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    O_o

    And what, I wonder, is your definition of "sucks" that illustrates to you that I might have misunderstood the complaints to which Linus responds so colorfully?

    Soma

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    Registered User manasij7479's Avatar
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    The problem is not that the desktop drivers 'suck', from the point of view of the consumer. It has great performance(as proven from benchmarks) , and supports new specs..say new OpenGL versions quickly.
    They also bother to update the driver at each Xorg version bump. (which AMD refuses to do.)
    And their driver, generally just works, without having to do any troubleshooting.
    From the point of view of Nvidia and many users (including me, to some extent), this is great Linux support.
    The only complaint from an user (only applicable for laptops) would be the lack of optimus support, which Nvidia refuses to fix.

    But, technically speaking, it is a poor 'Linux' driver and that is all Linus should and does cares about.
    1. It brings tons of security issues and incompatibility due to UMS...(almost everything has moved to KMS for about a decade)
    2. Optimus support would be solved too (almost automagically, in fact), if they used kernel facilities instead of reinventing the wheel poorly.
    3. Those using that driver can't submit kernel bug reports. (The reson is out of reach of my technical knowledge)
    4. And some others I do not have a clear idea of.
    They don't really need to open their drivers, only publish some sort of interface to the hardware and let others create drivers from them. That doesn't expose any sort of 'intellectual property' (the term seems a little moronic to me though), afaik.
    Manasij Mukherjee | gcc-4.8.2 @Arch Linux
    Slow and Steady wins the race... if and only if :
    1.None of the other participants are fast and steady.
    2.The fast and unsteady suddenly falls asleep while running !



  14. #14
    Master Apprentice phantomotap's Avatar
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    The problem is not that the desktop drivers 'suck', from the point of view of the consumer.
    O_o

    Yes. They absolutely do suck from the point of view of the consumer.

    Did you not get that the people making such complaints are consumers?

    [Edit]
    Just to be clear here, your smooth experience doesn't invalidate all the terrible experiences of others.

    Those "others" who are making these complaints are consumers who just want to use the operating system that they want on their own machines.

    I don't know where you got the notion that the proprietary drivers from nVidia for "Linux" don't suck.

    They are far better than they were four years ago, but they absolutely do still suck.
    [/Edit]

    The only complaint from an user would be the lack of optimus support, which Nvidia refuses to fix.
    o_O

    That's certainly not the only valid complaint from a nVidia user on "Linux".

    You seem to be just as poorly informed as Elysia.

    [Edit]
    I'm not saying that you are just that you seem so because of such nonsense as "The only complaint from an user would be the lack of optimus support".

    That's the only complaint a nVidia user on "Linux" may have?

    Which Earth do you live on? (I'm 1218.)
    [/Edit]

    You say that the driver "generally just works" when it absolutely doesn't. Sure, it works "out-of-the-box" often enough to be recommended over ATI, but that isn't saying anything because ATI drivers also suck and we, at the "LFS" "IRC", spend just as much time helping people chase issues with nVidia drivers as we do with wireless network cards.

    By the by, that ("Optimus") was exactly the complaint to which Linus was responding.

    They don't really need to open their drivers, only publish some sort of interface to the hardware and let others create drivers from them.
    This is something they've flatly stated that they will never really consider.

    [Edit]
    Which, actually, this wouldn't be nearly sufficient. The community would still need some support in the form of "FAQ" or something because of the ridiculous complexity of modern video cards.
    [/Edit]

    Soma
    Last edited by phantomotap; 06-29-2012 at 08:58 PM.

  15. #15
    Master Apprentice phantomotap's Avatar
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    ^_^

    The conversation in IRC was driven towards this same discussion by accident where this was said of me:

    Mr. Queermo - YouTube

    Soma

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