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Steve Jobs dead at age 56

This is a discussion on Steve Jobs dead at age 56 within the General Discussions forums, part of the Community Boards category; Originally Posted by Elysia Is it truly unbelievable for someone to hold Jobs in such disregard? I seriously hated the ...

  1. #61
    &TH of undefined behavior Fordy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    Is it truly unbelievable for someone to hold Jobs in such disregard? I seriously hated the guy and all that he made, so I am fine with comparing him to a "mini-Hitler."
    Welcome to Planet Crazy...population: you.

  2. #62
    Super Moderator VirtualAce's Avatar
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    Welcome to Planet Crazy...population: you.
    Haha Nice. And you know I'm not going to put you on ignore Elysia. That might have been a bit much but I am just surprised at your reaction in this thread. I apologize for even suggesting it as it may have been a bit harsh.

  3. #63
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    It's alright. I knew from the start that writing such comments might just bring everyone down upon me. We may have different views, but that doesn't stop us from being a community.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  4. #64
    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    I just don't buy the "We all are responsible" mindset that became institutionalized after a certain left felt it would be easier to just blame everyone,
    Are you sure that person exists? If so, s/he is probably more historically significant than Steve Jobs.

    But I don't think this idea of responsibility is anything beyond common sense -- the question is just how seriously you want to take it. If you buy a powdered organ from an endangered animal, I think it is fair to say you are directly involved in the crime. I eat meat, so I consider myself responsible for the slaughter of the animals I eat, since if I did not eat them, not as many would be slaughtered. However, I don't consider raising animals for food a bad thing.

    The tantalum issue is somewhat different, since it is hard to say what measure of real harm a single iphone represents. It is sort of like a can of tuna: abstractly, you could say one can of dolphin-unfriendly tuna might, statistically, represent 0.001 dead dolphins. But since you are not actually paying for dead dolphins (or for people to be raped in the Congo), your involvement is far less direct. But you are still involved, this is why you have the "blood diamond" issue and, thankfully, dolphin-friendly tuna. It's also why people are interested in things like electric cars and solar power.

    Of course, it is fair to say, "I don't care about dead dolphins," or "the issue of rape in the Congo is irrelevant to me", or "it does not matter whether or not global warming is real", etc. If that's how you feel
    Last edited by MK27; 10-08-2011 at 11:00 AM.
    C programming resources:
    GNU C Function and Macro Index -- glibc reference manual
    The C Book -- nice online learner guide
    Current ISO draft standard
    CCAN -- new CPAN like open source library repository
    3 (different) GNU debugger tutorials: #1 -- #2 -- #3
    cpwiki -- our wiki on sourceforge

  5. #65
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    It's alright. I knew from the start that writing such comments might just bring everyone down upon me.
    What you should have known from the start is that there is a time and a place for everything. Your disgusting attitude only revealed the person YOU are. Not the person you are are talking about. And since you revealed yourself to be a complete .............., your opinion of said person just doesn't carry any weight.

    You'll be happy to join Richard Stallman on this one and be best buddies.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  6. #66
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    I was aware of that and made the comment on purpose.
    It doesn't matter if my opinion on the matter weighs any weight. My words carrying less weight (or more for that matter) won't change a thing.
    Last edited by Elysia; 10-08-2011 at 11:47 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  7. #67
    Super Moderator VirtualAce's Avatar
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    If you buy a powdered organ from an endangered animal, I think it is fair to say you are directly involved in the crime. I eat meat, so I consider myself responsible for the slaughter of the animals I eat, since if I did not eat them, not as many would be slaughtered. However, I don't consider raising animals for food a bad thing.
    Thus the argument of efficient or deficient cause. I would say you are not the efficient cause of the animal dying and therefore have perpetrated no crime.

  8. #68
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK27 View Post
    Of course, it is fair to say, "I don't care about dead dolphins," or "the issue of rape in the Congo is irrelevant to me", or "it does not matter whether or not global warming is real", etc. If that's how you feel
    You can say I pick my causes. What I try to avoid is preaching a cause but then take a part on perpetuating it. Like... saying Steve Jobs is evil and then buying an iPhone, or complaining about global warming but buying plastic.
    MK27 likes this.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  9. #69
    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VirtualAce View Post
    Thus the argument of efficient or deficient cause. I would say you are not the efficient cause of the animal dying and therefore have perpetrated no crime.
    1) The logic is not so black-white binary, 2) That can only lead to endless semantics.

    Eg, if I leave my baby alone in the house and she falls to her death, I am not really guilty of murder, but I am certainly guilty of criminal negligence causing death.

    Similarly, if I own a crane and the crane collapses because I did not maintain it properly, I am not the efficient cause of the crane's collapse, but I still bare most of the responsibility for the accident.

    To take get more absurd: if I drop a burning rag into a pile of leaves by the side of your house, I could not be the efficient cause of your house burning down, even if I am completely aware of how likely it is to happen. If it does, are you going to say, "No problem. You are not to blame at all"?

    People risk their lives poaching endangered animals because other people pay them to do so (in advance or after the fact is irrelevant). You may not be the efficient cause of the animal's death, but you are the efficient cause of poaching.

    This is why possessing child porn is illegal in most Western countries. You do not have to produce it yourself.
    Last edited by MK27; 10-08-2011 at 12:15 PM.
    C programming resources:
    GNU C Function and Macro Index -- glibc reference manual
    The C Book -- nice online learner guide
    Current ISO draft standard
    CCAN -- new CPAN like open source library repository
    3 (different) GNU debugger tutorials: #1 -- #2 -- #3
    cpwiki -- our wiki on sourceforge

  10. #70
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    It's the fact you have to get into such convoluted and extreme analogies that should give you cause to reconsider whether all that you are saying makes any sense or applies to the discussion at hand. That's the trouble with analogies. Before you know it, they went too far and no longer represent what is actually being discussed. Answering them directly only serves the purpose of removing us even further from whatever we were talking about.

    So excuse me while I steer us back on track...

    Your level of responsibility on these matters we are talking about, is your to decide. Not anyone else's.
    I cannot consider myself responsible for Global Warming when I don't even believe in the thing, for instance. Likewise, I cannot consider myself responsible for Apple's "evil ways" if I don't buy their products. But should I be responsible, if I do? That only I should answer. Not you. If I take it inside me that "Apple is evil", then surely I am responsible if I buy any product from them. But if I don't believe in any of that talk, I'm only responsible in your head. And that is not enough to make me responsible.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  11. #71
    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    It's the fact you have to get into such convoluted and extreme analogies that should give you cause to reconsider whether all that you are saying makes any sense or applies to the discussion at hand.
    Those latest convolutions were only to demonstrate how ridiculous (and potentially convoluted) VirtualAce's point was.

    That's the trouble with analogies.
    I agree that analogy can be a tricky beast, but I also promise you will not have much to do with your brain without it.

    Before you know it, they went too far and no longer represent what is actually being discussed. Answering them directly only serves the purpose of removing us even further from whatever we were talking about.
    I would say this is symptomatic of your own propensity for radical abstraction* (which, nb, depends upon the same principles as analogy, namely, that you can categorically abstract or extract a generalization from some specific events). When I abstract or generalize, I almost always do so by analogy.

    So excuse me while I steer us back on track...
    That'll be the day, lol. No offense, Mario -- I just could not resist :P

    Your level of responsibility on these matters we are talking about, is your to decide. Not anyone else's.
    I cannot consider myself responsible for Global Warming when I don't even believe in the thing, for instance.
    Absolutely. I was just raising the tantalum issue because it is information some people may be unaware of, but that they might consider of interest.

    I also think it is evidence of the fact that Apple officially, and completely, disregards issues such as environmental or social responsibility. AFAICT, no one would bother to contest that, a fact I find slightly alarming considering what a "hip and cool" thing Apple products are considered to be, and what a great guy people think Jobs was. So I can infer that many many people's idea of greatness is to not give a ........, and cater exclusively to a moneyed elite. Like being a nihilist fashion designer, if you get my point.

    Likewise, I cannot consider myself responsible for Apple's "evil ways" if I don't buy their products. But should I be responsible, if I do?
    I believe you should be concerned, if you do (and perhaps, you should be concerned anyway). That this bleeds into a feeling of responsibility or guilt -- well, that's a matter for your conscience to decide.

    I think the conscience is a very cultivated thing. Some people might say it equates to a form of masochism; IMO it is the price you pay for empathy, which I consider to enrich my life.

    I cannot claim to never feeling guilty about the consequences of the things that I do, or that my feelings of guilt always lead me to modify my behavior. However, I'm not going to disown them either. A social existence entails responsibility. Responsibility is not always easy to deal with.

    * sometimes bordering on obfuscation. It's like three card monty, or watching a political debate aimed at idiots
    Last edited by MK27; 10-08-2011 at 03:47 PM.
    C programming resources:
    GNU C Function and Macro Index -- glibc reference manual
    The C Book -- nice online learner guide
    Current ISO draft standard
    CCAN -- new CPAN like open source library repository
    3 (different) GNU debugger tutorials: #1 -- #2 -- #3
    cpwiki -- our wiki on sourceforge

  12. #72
    In my head happyclown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    Your disgusting attitude only revealed the person YOU are. Not the person you are are talking about. And since you revealed yourself to be a complete .............., your opinion of said person just doesn't carry any weight.
    Mario, stop attacking Elysia.

    That's what you always descend to - attacking the person. I have never seen Elysia attack you, or anybody else. That says a lot about the type of person Elysia is, and the type of person you are. You don't need to attack people just because their opinion is not the same as yours.

    RIP Mr Jobs.
    OS: Linux Mint 13(Maya) LTS 64 bit.

  13. #73
    Super Moderator VirtualAce's Avatar
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    Those latest convolutions were only to demonstrate how ridiculous (and potentially convoluted) VirtualAce's point was.
    It was intended to be.
    MK27 likes this.

  14. #74
    Devil's Advocate SlyMaelstrom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happyclown View Post
    I have never seen Elysia attack you, or anybody else.
    Isn't that how this whole thing got started?
    Sent from my iPad®

  15. #75
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happyclown View Post
    Mario, stop attacking Elysia.

    That's what you always descend to - attacking the person. I have never seen Elysia attack you, or anybody else. That says a lot about the type of person Elysia is, and the type of person you are. You don't need to attack people just because their opinion is not the same as yours.

    RIP Mr Jobs.
    What on earth!?
    Lost your mind or something? Just read the thread, will you...

    EDIT: You know what, don't even bother. It's my fault. I allowed myself to drag into the crap this thread has become right in post 11. I should have just shut up and let Elysia and Elysia alone to... how do you put it?... say her opinion of Steve Jobs on a condolences thread on the next day after his death. And God forbid I do the same thing about Elysia.
    Last edited by Mario F.; 10-08-2011 at 09:42 PM.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

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