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God hates cross-posters!

This is a discussion on God hates cross-posters! within the General Discussions forums, part of the Community Boards category; Originally Posted by Elysia Mmmm... it's kind of backwards. You are paying with your time to help someone or add ...

  1. #76
    ATH0 quzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    Mmmm... it's kind of backwards. You are paying with your time to help someone or add something to a discussion. But what if you get neither of that? Would you pay for something you are not going to use? I do believe the feeling is somewhere along those lines.
    Then you are only fooling yourself. It's no different if I start a post and someone beats me to the reply. My time was just as "wasted" there as it would have been if someone had replied on another forum at the same time I replied on this one.

    The only difference is that you have to go out of your way to feel cheated. (You have to go hunting on other forums to feel cheated.) There is absolutely no difference to someone beating me to a post on this forum, or someone beating me to a post on another one. Or, for me to have posted, them to ignore my post and to read someone else's post in the same thread and to thank them and not me (since that's what this all seems to be about, getting thanks for answering). You should feel just as cheated in that case; them deciding someone else in the thread worded it better, and ignoring your post.

    It's the same thing. In all cases, you have "invested" your time, and someone else got the "reward". It doesn't matter if it's on the same forum or a different forum, the outcome is identical.


    Quzah.
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  2. #77
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    I am inclined to agree that it is the same. However, when cross-posting, as have been said before, it is more difficult for us to detect that someone has "beat" us to it, and that it what irks people most, I do believe.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  3. #78
    ATH0 quzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    I am inclined to agree that it is the same. However, when cross-posting, as have been said before, it is more difficult for us to detect that someone has "beat" us to it, and that it what irks people most, I do believe.
    So what they are really irritated about is that they have to go out of their way to feel slighted.

    "Dang it, I want to get mad without having to go out of my way to do so!"

    Well that's much more logical. :roflsmileythatdoesn'tsuck"


    Quzah.
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  4. #79
    Registered User whiteflags's Avatar
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    Honestly I thought the rule against cross posting was to prevent people from posting their question on both the C and C++ forums.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by quzah View Post
    :roflsmileythatdoesn'tsuck"
    Quzah.
    Quzah, I like your new smileys. Maybe before we implement "code highlighting" and "cross post witch hunting" modifications we can implement your smileys. :smileyquzahdoesn'thate:
    Elysia and quzah like this.
    Quote Originally Posted by anduril462 View Post
    Now, please, for the love of all things good and holy, think about what you're doing! Don't just run around willy-nilly, coding like a drunk two-year-old....
    Quote Originally Posted by quzah View Post
    ..... Just don't be surprised when I say you aren't using standard C anymore, and as such,are off in your own little universe that I will completely disregard.
    Warning: Some or all of my posted code may be non-standard and as such should not be used and in no case looked at.

  6. #81
    Super Moderator VirtualAce's Avatar
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    Cross-posters may be annoying but sometimes it is because of these that I find any answers at all on the internet. If you Google for a topic you will see the same question about a thousand different places and maybe 5% of them have any type of answer worth anything. If it were not for cross-posters I would quite likely never find an answer to a specific question. Often I find the wording of one question is exactly what I need only to find the answer on one obscure forum where someone took the time to explain the answer or at least a possible approach.

    The only place I can stop the people who have no intent of actually working or researching to find the answer is here on this forum and therefore I do not concern myself with other places. I do not close threads here if I find the same thread elsewhere on other forums but I do close threads here if the same thread has been posted in two different places on this forum. Likewise I do not have the time to look at many other forums or become a member in good standing or any standing at all on other forums. This is the forum where I choose to post and help people and as such I devote all of my free forum-browsing time to it and could care less what is happening on other forums or which members from here post there or vice versa. I do not understand how anyone has the time to devote to finding out if poster X has posted on A,B,C, and D forums. For me I could care less.

    So my approach in short is to focus on the forum I care about and respect the most. Now I do search for answers at work and as such quickly browse other forums (only via Google links) but the only forum I take the time to click here and there and everywhere is this one. I have better things to do with my time than concern myself with people over whom I have no control of their actions and also no authority to control said actions. In short if the poster did not break any rules here then it is out of sight and out of mind for me. If that makes me close minded or somehow closed off then so be it but my time is precious and I only have enough of it to devote to this forum.

    So...cross posting across forums does not bother me b/c even though I see it occur I rarely can trace those posts back to this forum. This is probably b/c deep down I could care less if the same thing was posted on 50 million forums. Maybe then one of my Google searches would actually turn up something useful.

    Posting the same answer in a thread
    And to address the issue of posting the same answer but with different wording I would say that also does not bother me. All of us are unique people and as such communicate in unique ways. I could give an answer to person A but b/c of my choice of words or style of communicating the person may not understand my answer. So along comes the next person and re-iterates what I said and all of a sudden a light goes off and the poster gets it. Isn't that the beauty of communication in a nutshell? I see nothing wrong with that unless someone is simply copy and pasting a response with no changes at all. I try not to re-iterate but often it is necessary b/c I feel a little something was left out or I could perhaps expand on a point that was made and make it clearer.
    Some time back I had a problem with one member here about my posts concerning DLLs and exporting. For the longest time I could not fathom what was wrong with my posts. Finally he had enough and told me and I was completely blown away. It was not that I was wrong or giving bad info but that I was not giving enough info. It had never occurred to me that was the case. So when he posted the same answer but went into greater detail I finally got it. Perfect example of the same answer worded differently or expanded upon being more valuable than the orignal answer.

    Moderators
    And finally to address the 'mom' moderators. I believe it is a moderator's resposibility to ensure that our threads do not get out of hand with name calling and such. Overall I believe we are quite lenient and understanding but there are times where threads are going nowhere constructive and end up being flame wars. Those types of threads are not productive nor conducive to open communication and need to be dealt with appropriately. In times past members have complained about threads getting out of hand and blaming the mods for allowing it to happen. So which way do people want it? When is a thread most assuredly out of hand? How far is too far? I also want to ask how many threads that degrade into flame wars actually came out of it and became productive again? Over the last 7 years I can probably count them on one hand. Fact is once a thread degrades into flame wars, name calling, bickering, etc. they rarely get any better.

    Honestly I thought the rule against cross posting was to prevent people from posting their question on both the C and C++ forums.
    Call me ignorant and stupid (I've been called worse) but I thought the same.
    Last edited by VirtualAce; 09-19-2011 at 07:21 PM.

  7. #82
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VirtualAce View Post
    And finally to address the 'mom' moderators. I believe it is a moderator's resposibility to ensure that our threads do not get out of hand with name calling and such. Overall I believe we are quite lenient and understanding but there are times where threads are going nowhere constructive and end up being flame wars. Those types of threads are not productive nor conducive to open communication and need to be dealt with appropriately. In times past members have complained about threads getting out of hand and blaming the mods for allowing it to happen. So which way do people want it? When is a thread most assuredly out of hand? How far is too far? I also want to ask how many threads that degrade into flame wars actually came out of it and became productive again? Over the last 7 years I can probably count them on one hand. Fact is once a thread degrades into flame wars, name calling, bickering, etc. they rarely get any better.
    I don't see things as you do. I believe some of what you say makes sense no doubt. Personal insults should be dealt with probably, even though there's no such equivalent off switch in real life. And certainly if one of the parties involved asks a moderator to intervene, sure thing. But there's also a lot of people being free not to read a thread that has become a flamewar, but they still do it for some sick reason, and then complain the thread is bothering them... totally weird behavior (but I may or may have not indulged it myself).

    But perhaps more important, the same you say moderators don't close that many threads (let me tell you, some of you folks do!), I do say that in fact in CBoard arguments are often rather civil. Can be heated, offensive sometimes, but with a modicum level of civility to it. What troubles me most however is not the fact you folks think a thread should be closed. What troubles me is that you close it. Just like that. No prior warning, no "hey guys I'm thinking closing this thread", no nothing. You just rudely interrupt and close it. Sometimes leaving a bad taste in the mouth of those involved in the discussion. You behave more like executors and less as moderators. Hitting that close thread command must feel good.

    On the other hand there's the whole 300 other threads that just get closed for... nothing. The most typical example is the "This is going nowhere". Excuse me? You decide that how?

    Please note I don't mean this as an insult. I even agree with some of the closing of threads that goes on. But that's mostly coincidental and irrelevant. The issue is the proportion of closed threads that I find too high, the fact many of these threads didn't need to be closed in order to die of natural causes and the fact the whole flamewar thing being out of proportion until someone actually complains about it.
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    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  8. #83
    Unregistered User Yarin's Avatar
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    I've noticed this myself. There are other forums I'm on (though, now I'm here mostly), where the moderators are much less likely to close a thread, and more often than not, this is preferred by all/most of the participants. (Non-"2 cents") Input from other ppl not involved in the conflict-at-the-time, really _do_ steer a thread's direction, which is very often, not for the worse.
    Yes, when the flaming starts it's time to close a thread, but like Mario said, "This is going nowhere. Closed!", is _not_ desired by the community & is really annoying.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    I even agree with some of the closing of threads that goes on. But that's mostly coincidental and irrelevant. The issue is the proportion of closed threads that I find too high, the fact many of these threads didn't need to be closed in order to die of natural causes and the fact the whole flamewar thing being out of proportion until someone actually complains about it.

  9. #84
    Unregistered User Yarin's Avatar
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    Heh, _on_ topic...

    *) VirtualAce actually brought up an excellent point that I didn't think about. I _also_ have found info from ppl cross-forum posting. In this cases, it's actually quite a good thing as it helps them and us.
    *) I agree cross-forum posters use up more ppls' time. But so what? If he posted only here (and not in the other place), _your_ use of time is the same. _And_, as mentioned already, different ppl on different sites answer differently, that allows the poster _and_ googlers, better rounded answers.
    *) So the poster doesn't let you know that he has an answer on the other forum already. Big deal, it's amazing how many ppl _don't_ cross-forum post, and yet they _still_ waste your time. The problem is with the poster's manners, not with the fact that he was cross-forum posting.
    *) Not telling you he hasn't cross-forum posted is _not_ deceiving. In fact, it's really none of your business, because like I mentioned, it _really_ doesn't effect you at all. You've already dedicated your time here, deal with the fact that ppl (esp. noobs) _will_ waste it, regardless of where they do and don't post.
    *) Is it really _any_ of this site's (and users') business what a visitor does on _other_ sites?
    *) Quzah also made an excellent point about non-interactive sites (and even blogs), I don't go thanking the 100s of sites & blogs I've learned from, so I'm being selfish? The same goes for forums. The only reason I say "ty" on a forum or IRC is out of courtesy, it's what's universally expected (and it's easier to do), plus, there's the community aspect.
    *) If I were to cross-forum post (which I have done a couple times in the past, even here on CBoard!), and I get a satisfactory answer on one board, I let the ppl on the other board know that I have my answer now, ty for their time. This completely nullifies practically every argument against cross-forum posting that I've heard yet. _If_ the poster _doesn't_ do this, then, again, it's a problem with his manners, _not_ the actual cross-forum posting!
    *) Ppl who argue against it seem to be self-absorbed. Forgive the insult, but think about it. The only reason you don't like it is because _you_ are the only one who doesn't benefit from it / got to be the one who gave the accepted answer / got a ty / whatever.
    *) Posting links to the other forums you've posted it on is actually very bad. It lets everyone else know that other ppl elsewhere are reading it, too. So, why would I answer, if someone else (at a different place that I'm probably too lazy to check out) will just answer it. It hurts your chances of a response. Which, again, hurts everyone, including googlers.

    I think that about sums what I've gleaned from this thread. Time to close it haha
    MK27 likes this.

  10. #85
    C++ Witch laserlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarin
    If I were to cross-forum post (which I have done a couple times in the past, even here on CBoard!), and I get a satisfactory answer on one board, I let the ppl on the other board know that I have my answer now, ty for their time. This completely nullifies practically every argument against cross-forum posting that I've heard yet.
    ... if you are online and immediately aware of the satisfactory reply. So no, the "completely nullifies" claim is grossly exaggerated,

    Quote Originally Posted by Yarin
    *) Ppl who argue against it seem to be self-absorbed. Forgive the insult, but think about it. The only reason you don't like it is because _you_ are the only one who doesn't benefit from it / got to be the one who gave the accepted answer / got a ty / whatever.
    Your reasoning is flawed because your assumptions are flawed ("only reason", "only one"), but generally, I agree: the possibility of receiving recognition is a powerful motivation to provide help. People are not always, perhaps even rarely, altruistic. So what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yarin
    *) Posting links to the other forums you've posted it on is actually very bad. It lets everyone else know that other ppl elsewhere are reading it, too. So, why would I answer, if someone else (at a different place that I'm probably too lazy to check out) will just answer it. It hurts your chances of a response. Which, again, hurts everyone, including googlers.
    You have completely ignored the recommendation by several people in this thread to post consecutively. Furthermore, if you are too lazy to check, then that's your problem: the same argument you raise about having "already dedicated your time here" applies.
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  11. #86
    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by laserlight View Post
    You have completely ignored the recommendation by several people in this thread to post consecutively.
    Recommending something is fine; making it a "my way or the highway" law is just about power.

    Quote Originally Posted by laserlight View Post
    I don't know whether it is moral or immoral, but I think that working "consecutively" is sensible.
    I think working concurrently is sensible too. For example, if I go into a library to do research, I do not pull one book off the shelf, take it to a desk, get what I want out of it, put it back and take another. I get a bunch of books and start examining them concurrently. On the surface, this might seem inconsiderate, since you are "hogging" more than one book. However, exactly zero librarians in the world believe that, which is why you can even withdraw more than one title at a time! Isn't that selfish considering you can only really be reading one at any given point in time? You should take your book home, get your info out of it, then bring it back and take another!

    Another analogy would be fishing. If I have three poles, why not put three lines in the water concurrently. Of course, this requires more vigilance and skill on behalf of the fisher, which I think is true of forum use and cross posting.

    If you are going to distinguish "concurrent" vs. "consecutive", how will you do it?

    Quote Originally Posted by grumpy View Post
    I would tend to encourage people to try posting on one site first, and then wait for 48 hours or so before posting.
    48 hours?!!?? Be honest and tell me who does that. Why not a week? Maybe 90 days? In fact, perhaps once per annum is enough for one question. You should have to wait until next year, and we should have international internet cops to make sure of it.

    If I post something on an active forum and I do not receive a satisfactory reply in 2 hours, I absolutely promise I will start asking around somewhere else (be it a mailing list or another forum or whatever), and I very much doubt I am unusual in that sense. But isn't that essentially indistinguishable from simultaneous cross-posting?

    If you think I am wrong for doing so, you are, unequivocally, someone who wants to prevent and restrict the dissemination of knowledge, not someone who is "protecting it responsibly" and as such, IMO, should certainly not be moderating internet forums. You should lobby to have them criminalized instead if that's your attitude.

    Point being, I don't see how you can define a threshold waiting time that will be useful in distinguishing people who work "consecutively, as is sensible" from people who cross-post simultaneously, and it is assbackward to make everyone else pay because a few people will abuse the system.
    Last edited by MK27; 09-20-2011 at 01:04 PM.
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  12. #87
    Unregistered User Yarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by laserlight View Post
    ... if you are online and immediately aware of the satisfactory reply. So no, the "completely nullifies" claim is grossly exaggerated,
    Yes, I suppose your right, it is exaggerated. ...but not by much. Remember, because you posted on 2x the forums, it's natural that you'll put 2x the time in checking & responding. If not, then not. Remember that ppl can be slow to repsond even on 1 forum, too. So really my inital point wasn't even that relevant considering, that if 2 ppl from opposite forums both give a good answer, _no_ harm has been done as ppl here keep suggesting.


    Quote Originally Posted by laserlight View Post
    Your reasoning is flawed because your assumptions are flawed ("only reason", "only one"), but generally, I agree: the possibility of receiving recognition is a powerful motivation to provide help. People are not always, perhaps even rarely, altruistic. So what?
    No, I don't have a problem with the fact that ppl want to receive recognition. I'm simply trying to point out that just because someone doesn't give you that recognition that you want, doesn't mean that they're in the wrong. Like I said, you've already dedicated your time to it. Deal with the fact that you may or may not get want _you_ want out of it. This is how life in general works, nothing new.


    Quote Originally Posted by laserlight View Post
    You have completely ignored the recommendation by several people in this thread to post consecutively. Furthermore, if you are too lazy to check, then that's your problem: the same argument you raise about having "already dedicated your time here" applies.
    Well, then I'll go ahead and addess it then.
    Posting "consecutively", is just to satisfy the ppl who have a problem with cross-forum posting. I'm saying that this problem ppl have shouldn't even be, in the first place. In other words, someone shouldn't have to wait (48 hours, or at all), just because some other ppl want to potentially feel good about them selves without regard to how a 3rd party is affected (googlers, etc.).

  13. #88
    Registered User whiteflags's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarin
    Posting links to the other forums you've posted it on is actually very bad. [...] Which, again, hurts everyone, including googlers.
    This is just a specious argument. I don't think google is this inefficient. I've never personally had to go one or two links deep to read anything google found. Google spiders already find the key words in the original context.

    Also I don't care about how people search the internet, as long as they do.
    Last edited by whiteflags; 09-20-2011 at 02:08 PM.

  14. #89
    Code Goddess Prelude's Avatar
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    I'm amazed that this thread has gone so long, even considering quzah's trolling efforts. Here's an idea for MK27 and those who agree with him: mind your own damn business.

    Your arguments ultimately boil down to "it doesn't hurt anyone", but that argument goes both ways. Nobody is hurt by cross posting? Well, nobody is hurt by negative reactions to cross posting either, because the cross poster will still get help from another person or on another forum.

    This whole argument is pointless, move along.

    kthxbye

    /thread
    My best code is written with the delete key.

  15. #90
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK27 View Post
    ...
    If I post something on an active forum and I do not receive a satisfactory reply in 2 hours, I absolutely promise I will start asking around somewhere else (be it a mailing list or another forum or whatever), and I very much doubt I am unusual in that sense. But isn't that essentially indistinguishable from simultaneous cross-posting?
    ...
    Just remember that in some forums, it typically takes a day to get a reply to a thread. Cboard is a hyper active forum as I'd like to call it. You can usually get answers in under an hour or less.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

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