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Firefox 5 (Mozilla Release Strategy)

This is a discussion on Firefox 5 (Mozilla Release Strategy) within the General Discussions forums, part of the Community Boards category; Software development - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Software development process - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia your false accusation is rather ...

  1. #16
    Registered User kryptkat's Avatar
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    Software development - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Software development process - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    your false accusation is rather vague could you be more specific ? what exactly is it that you think i do not know about "software development" ?

    you obviously missed the part " inevitable bugs must then be fixed before the product can be shipped " . of clarity i was talking about KNOWN bugs that have not been fixed before the software is released.

    Without much of a design in the way, programmers immediately begin producing code. At some point, testing begins (often late in the development cycle), and the inevitable bugs must then be fixed before the product can be shipped.
    i believe in fixing bugs before sending it out. the exception to that is if i give up on a project then i would put it out there for someone else to finish.

    i still do not see how i am incorrect on the "software development" ?

    have you seriously taken a look at the source code to firefox ? half of it is in python and the other is javascript. it looks like dogs and monkys coded it. i think it should be rewritten in cpp. all of it.

    i would never throw a cat. ever.
    Last edited by kryptkat; 06-25-2011 at 12:56 PM.

  2. #17
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kryptkat View Post
    what exactly is it that you think i do not know about "software development" ?
    That you actually think one should not release a new version before all the bugs of the previous one are fleshed out.

    Quote Originally Posted by kryptkat View Post
    have you seriously taken a look at the source code to firefox ? half of it is in python and the other is javascript. it looks like dogs and monkys coded it.
    And your solution to that is to not release a new Firefox version in the next 1 or 2 years?
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  3. #18
    C++ Witch laserlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kryptkat
    i think it should be rewritten in cpp. all of it.
    This reminds me of Things You Should Never Do, Part I
    C + C++ Compiler: MinGW port of GCC
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    Look up a C++ Reference and learn How To Ask Questions The Smart Way

  4. #19
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ!
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    Quote Originally Posted by kryptkat View Post
    ff5 has too many bugs that are not resolved. that should have been resolved way before they put anything out as the next ff. for example the "submit crash report" always now stays on in ff5. i fixed it by adding "Crash Reporter" then the value of "0" for the data now it stays off purrrmentaltly. honestly think the crash reporter should be removed and that will boost performance. uther wize i hast seen no increase in speed over ff3.6.16
    Oh, so you can say "........ you" to the developers when you get a crash? Thanks for screwing over the rest of us that can benefit from bug fixes which you might find.
    Re-enable that crash reporter again. Pronto.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  5. #20
    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    Oh, so you can say "........ you" to the developers when you get a crash? Thanks for screwing over the rest of us that can benefit from bug fixes which you might find.
    Re-enable that crash reporter again. Pronto.
    Users do not have to respect poorly designed software, which that bug reporter mostly is. Following my last update, after a crash it would endlessly repeat itself, meaning they frequently get the same bug reported ten times. I wouldn't be surprised if that thing isn't even attached to anything, lol -- they have so much data to ignore.

    It's also oriented toward crashes caused by mis-handling content, which is a very optimistic approach: "Oh my software crashed? Somebody must have fed it the wrong thing, because it is bug-free otherwise!"

    I still prefer firefox to chrome and the mozilla spin offs like icecat, which if you think firefox can get screwy, try icecat or epiphany for a while. Obviously maintaining and developing these things is a lot of work. But the bug reporter is pointless, methinks. WRT to widescale bugs, they are going to find out anyway. WRT to everything else, that tish goes straight into the garbage. The "bug reporter" is just another creep feature that now has to be debugged and maintained.
    Last edited by MK27; 06-26-2011 at 10:01 AM.
    C programming resources:
    GNU C Function and Macro Index -- glibc reference manual
    The C Book -- nice online learner guide
    Current ISO draft standard
    CCAN -- new CPAN like open source library repository
    3 (different) GNU debugger tutorials: #1 -- #2 -- #3
    cpwiki -- our wiki on sourceforge

  6. #21
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    The bug reporter isn't related to how buggy (or not) the (a) software is.
    I honestly don't think the bug reporter is useless--else why would they have it in there? I don't think the developers are dumb in a sense of maintaining a pointless feature.
    I am just going to be optimistic on this one. Submitting a bug report via the crasher will mostly likely not hurt--it shouldn't possible be able to do, and it might do some good. It might help them find some bugs, or at least discover which bugs users are experiencing most.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  7. #22
    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    The bug reporter isn't related to how buggy (or not) the (a) software is.
    No, the bug reporter is software all by itself, which relates to how buggy the bug reporter is. And it has at least one glaring bug I described that IMO warrants turning it off.

    I honestly don't think the bug reporter is useless--else why would they have it in there? I don't think the developers are dumb in a sense of maintaining a pointless feature.
    I am just going to be optimistic on this one.
    Read Voltaire.

    Submitting a bug report via the crasher will mostly likely not hurt--it shouldn't possible be able to do, and it might do some good.
    If one more reminder of how dumbing users down because the developers find them too irritating == devolution of life, software, and everything, I would say yes, it does hurt.

    It's worth noting what bug reporters like that are replacing: an intelligent, communicative system which promotes self-responsibility and involvement. I report a bug non-anonymously. You track, publicly, how the bug is being dealt with, and I receive messages informing me and asking for more information if required.

    I really cannot see some black box popup which may or may not be doing anything to report the real problem to real people as any kind of improvement. This is like calling customer service and getting a machine, or some kid at a contracted out call center who provides "customer service" for 10 different companies but doesn't know anything about any of them, because they can't afford to train anyone for such an unimportant purpose.

    It is not about doing things better. It is about deferring and placating and not having to deal with anything.

    It might help them find some bugs, or at least discover which bugs users are experiencing most.
    Well, if there was an ounce of good intention in there, that was hopefully it. Still not worth being treated like a fool for tho, so mine's off. When they institute a normal "old school" bug tracking system, I'll be happy to describe my problems. Otherwise, I don't need to waste my time.
    Last edited by MK27; 06-26-2011 at 11:06 AM.
    C programming resources:
    GNU C Function and Macro Index -- glibc reference manual
    The C Book -- nice online learner guide
    Current ISO draft standard
    CCAN -- new CPAN like open source library repository
    3 (different) GNU debugger tutorials: #1 -- #2 -- #3
    cpwiki -- our wiki on sourceforge

  8. #23
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ!
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    It's not there to treat people like fools, but to allow them to submit useful information fast and quickly in case of crashes. It's not a substitute for real bug reports, so what is the harm?
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  9. #24
    Registered User whiteflags's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia
    It's not there to treat people like fools, but to allow them to submit useful information fast and quickly in case of crashes. It's not a substitute for real bug reports, so what is the harm?
    I'd think everything in your post is harmful. You just admitted that people will get to send "useful" information that is not a substitute for a bug report. That in my opinion defines useless.

    Still haven't turned it off and it hasn't really done anything at all except report when flash or silverlight died on my machine.

  10. #25
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    Useless? Is that how Microsoft have used their own crash reporting system to identify and fix the most common crash or problem reports?
    They are not substitute for bugs reports, but they are not useless.
    The fact that you send reports when flash or silverlight dies gives the developers knowledge that these are problematic software, needs patching, and they might even be able to isolate and fix the problem. Okay, so this is a known problem by now, but who says they cannot find other similar cases in the future?
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  11. #26
    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    It's not a substitute for real bug reports, so what is the harm?
    Yeah, the bugzilla tracker is still there, I thought it was gone.

    That said, I don't need "bug reporting for dummies" because I'm perfectly fine using bugzilla.

    Firefox crashes sometimes several times a day for me, but I never saw any feedback demonstrating the bug reporter's report served any purpose at all other than that of one more piece of automated annoyance. So I'm expressing my dissatisfaction with the form and function of the software by not using it.

    If the bug reporter does something useful, let the developers be clear about what that is and provide some concrete evidence. If they cannot be bothered to do that, why should I, as a user, be bothered to use their software?
    C programming resources:
    GNU C Function and Macro Index -- glibc reference manual
    The C Book -- nice online learner guide
    Current ISO draft standard
    CCAN -- new CPAN like open source library repository
    3 (different) GNU debugger tutorials: #1 -- #2 -- #3
    cpwiki -- our wiki on sourceforge

  12. #27
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ!
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    You are a typical user creating headaches for developers.
    Oh, a new version (or new feature/software). But I don't see what does it does for me, so I'm just going to skip it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  13. #28
    Registered User whiteflags's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    You are a typical user creating headaches for developers.
    Oh, a new version (or new feature/software). But I don't see what does it does for me, so I'm just going to skip it.
    So you've never customized software before? You've never changed any features at all from the defaults, because you've always been completely satisfied with what the developers decide you want and need? If so, I'm jealous. I want that experience. If not, then I think you're part of the rest of the world, but maybe if you recognize people don't have to like your pet feature you'll be less of a headache right now.

  14. #29
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    Oh, sure. I like features and customizing software. I don't crack open open source software and modify the code, though. This is what plugins and options are for.
    Furthermore, if people dislike some thing, they can just ignore it. But upgrading to the latest software--if it's free, of course--is a given to reduce the headache to the developers and allowing them to produce a better experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  15. #30
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    You are a typical user creating headaches for developers.
    Oh, a new version (or new feature/software). But I don't see what does it does for me, so I'm just going to skip it.
    What the...? But since when I'm obliged to follow every developer whim? I didn't sign an obligation contract with anyone from whom I purchased or adopted software from. I've been using the same Take Command v. 7.01 since 2005. I never upgrade, and never will. It serves my purpose and I don't agree with any of the "new features" introduced in later versions. I never upgraded to AVG 8.0 until I moved to Avast and then Microsoft Security Essentials more than an year later, because they turned a perfectly fine anti-virus into a piece of crap.

    What do I care if that poses problems to software developers? It's up to software developers (a group I belong to) to suck it up and try to do better software instead of forcing their users into this collaboration BS that just wants to turns users into freebie test subjects. The software on my machine... I use it to be productive. Not to cover the arse of some development team that can't be bothered to test before releasing, or some software development model that puts 75% of the testing process on the hands of their users.

    If it works... you'll bet I'll think carefully before upgrading. Sue me.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

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