We live in a giant Black Hole...

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    We live in a giant Black Hole...

    Every Black Hole Contains Another Universe?

    I read this in a 18 year old book about Stephen Hawking (which I never got around to reading until just now); I guess the people at National Geographic are just as behind on their reading as me.

    If I remember correctly, some theories also suggest it's possible for matter/energy to escape from black holes at their poles as a stream; so maybe it's possible to escape from our universe too?
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    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
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    First thing I thought reading the opening paragraph is that would explain the big bang maybe? It was a consequence of the formation of the black hole "inside of which" our universe exists.

    [edit] see, great minds think alike (~10th paragraph):

    If our universe was birthed by a white hole [sic?] instead of a singularity, Poplawski said, "it would solve this problem of black hole singularities and also the big bang singularity."
    I think "white hole" is a typo, it should be "worm hole".

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    Last edited by MK27; 06-18-2010 at 11:11 AM.
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    Devil's Advocate SlyMaelstrom's Avatar
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    I actually thought all of this up this morning and was going to write the whole theory out on this forum a minute ago before I saw this post... I must be a genius, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by MK27 View Post
    I think "white hole" is a typo, it should be "worm hole".
    You skimmed, apparently. "White Hole" is defined, in quotes, at the beginning of the article as the other side of a black hole. Get it? White hole... black hole... The idea being that it goes in one and comes out the other rather than simply just disappearing or collapsing into a super-condensed piece of matter if Einstein is correct. You aren't wrong though, as the way it is described would make the black hole and the white hole two ends of what is commonly described as a worm hole.
    Last edited by SlyMaelstrom; 06-18-2010 at 12:46 PM.
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    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlyMaelstrom View Post
    I actually thought all of this up this morning and was going to write the whole theory out on this forum a minute ago before I saw this post... I must be a genius, too.
    That did happen to me on acid a couple of times, probably I am just flashing back now.
    C programming resources:
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    The C Book -- nice online learner guide
    Current ISO draft standard
    CCAN -- new CPAN like open source library repository
    3 (different) GNU debugger tutorials: #1 -- #2 -- #3
    cpwiki -- our wiki on sourceforge

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    Quote Originally Posted by SlyMaelstrom View Post
    I actually thought all of this up this morning and was going to write the whole theory out on this forum a minute ago before I saw this post... I must be a genius, too.
    Yeah, I actually thought up this theory a while ago as well.

    But then again, I also thought up a theory that anti-matter travels not in time but in anti-time, which would have the opposite vector of time. Of course, I don't actually believe the theory myself, although after some googling when I thought it up (in high school, actually), I found out that some people actually do believe it and thought of it before.

    The trick is thinking of something new. Like the guy that thought up the theory that atoms are really intelligent and fairly small alien spaceships, which themselves are made up by tiny aliens themselves, and so on...


    Edit: seriously, though, I haven't read the article yet, but couldn't this somehow explain the absence of anti-matters? That it is easier for anti-matter to escape the black hole. If anything can...
    But a black hole inside our universe would consist out of even tinier particles. Would it be possible of any bigger structures, like intelligent life, be made of particles small enough to fit a black hole in our universe? Then definitely quarks couldn't be the smallest particles that exist, not even close...
    Last edited by EVOEx; 06-18-2010 at 02:29 PM.

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    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EVOEx View Post
    Yeah, I actually thought up this theory a while ago as well.

    But then again, I also thought up a theory that anti-matter travels not in time but in anti-time, which would have the opposite vector of time. Of course, I don't actually believe the theory myself, although after some googling when I thought it up (in high school, actually), I found out that some people actually do believe it and thought of it before.
    I was ROTFL when I learned Sebastiani had also thought of this one:

    Quote Originally Posted by MK27 View Post
    I had another philosophy descended from the "mass is energy" one whereby light didn't have any speed at all and there was no such thing as empty space, there was just light as a medium permitting spacial and temporal (hence the "speed") relations. E=MC^2 would represent a logical barrier in the same way that it already does, or that three dimensions represented a logical barrier. And atomic particles are nodes, of course.
    Quantum teleportation across 10 miles -- Sebastiani's reply

    Mebbe this means quantum physics ain't so baffling for us laypeople on a macro level. Or else it is. Is there a macro level to quantum physics?
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    The C Book -- nice online learner guide
    Current ISO draft standard
    CCAN -- new CPAN like open source library repository
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    Unregistered User Yarin's Avatar
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    So let me get this straight. Black hole singularities, are not just condensed mass and energy, nor are they "infinitely dense and infinitely hot", but are portals to other worlds?

    And as evidence for this, it's shown that black holes spit stuff back out, and rotates just as our universe seems to?
    When you put water through a pipe, the water going in, and coming out are of the same universe. A merry go round rotates too, I don't know of any merry go rounds that have universes inside of them.

    What in the world even suggests, even a little bit, that whole universes are inside/through black holes?
    Am I missing something?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarin View Post
    What in the world even suggests, even a little bit, that whole universes are inside/through black holes?
    Nothing. Nada.Zilch. But that's the kind of nonsense that you hear once and awhile. It's the same type of "science" performed by Percival Lowell.

    What's ironic is that the article explains that indeed scientists have trouble explaining our Big Bang. Seems awkward and far fetched even to them. So, what's the clear and obvious answer to it? A black hole in a parallel universe created our universe. Ah, right. Of course!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarin View Post
    So let me get this straight. Black hole singularities, are not just condensed mass and energy, nor are they "infinitely dense and infinitely hot", but are portals to other worlds?

    And as evidence for this, it's shown that black holes spit stuff back out, and rotates just as our universe seems to?
    When you put water through a pipe, the water going in, and coming out are of the same universe. A merry go round rotates too, I don't know of any merry go rounds that have universes inside of them.

    What in the world even suggests, even a little bit, that whole universes are inside/through black holes?
    Am I missing something?
    Most merry go rounds don't bend space/time completely around themselves until they are completely cut off from the rest of the universe and where not even light can escape from them.
    That's the similarity between black holes & our universe. If our universe has a boundary which we can't cross, it's like the event horizon of a black hole. No matter how fast you travel away from a black hole, you can't escape because space/time is bent around it and as you move away, you follow the curved space which is now in a sphere, so you can't get out.
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    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpjust View Post
    No matter how fast you travel away from a black hole, you can't escape because space/time is bent around it and as you move away, you follow the curved space which is now in a sphere, so you can't get out.
    But you wouldn't perceive it as a sphere. Just you would get an intense sensation of deja vu every so often.
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    I thought this was going to be about the Hoops & Yoyo controversy.

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    Unregistered User Yarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpjust View Post
    Most merry go rounds don't bend space/time completely around themselves until they are completely cut off from the rest of the universe and where not even light can escape from them.
    That's the similarity between black holes & our universe. If our universe has a boundary which we can't cross, it's like the event horizon of a black hole. No matter how fast you travel away from a black hole, you can't escape because space/time is bent around it and as you move away, you follow the curved space which is now in a sphere, so you can't get out.
    As far as I was aware, though, a black hole's event horizon isn't an entrance into a 'spacetime sphere', simply spacetime that's become so 'steep' that even light can't go 'up' and out of it.
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    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarin View Post
    As far as I was aware, though, a black hole's event horizon isn't an entrance into a 'spacetime sphere', simply spacetime that's become so 'steep' that even light can't go 'up' and out of it.
    So there is no reason to believe there is not such a thing as a wormhole. Of course, that is a terrible reason to claim something (just because it could be), but I seem to recall from Hawking's "Brief History" that he and other leading physicists do give some credence to the nitty gritty of the idea.

    Wormhole - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    It looks like that "white hole" is not a typo, altho they were not explained in the original article.
    C programming resources:
    GNU C Function and Macro Index -- glibc reference manual
    The C Book -- nice online learner guide
    Current ISO draft standard
    CCAN -- new CPAN like open source library repository
    3 (different) GNU debugger tutorials: #1 -- #2 -- #3
    cpwiki -- our wiki on sourceforge

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    In my mind, a white hole is just the inside sphere of the event horizon of a black hole. I'm not quite sure how a wormhole could possibly connect two points in the same universe though. The only way I could imagine that being even remotely possible is if a ship could travel at the speed of light and could skim the event horizon of a black hole without crossing it; but even then, if they don't cross the event horizon, they aren't really going through a wormhole, and if they do cross it, they won't be able to escape.
    "I am probably the laziest programmer on the planet, a fact with which anyone who has ever seen my code will agree." - esbo, 11/15/2008

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    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpjust View Post
    In my mind, a white hole is just the inside sphere of the event horizon of a black hole. I'm not quite sure how a wormhole could possibly connect two points in the same universe though.
    These ones don't.

    the event horizon, they aren't really going through a wormhole, and if they do cross it, they won't be able to escape.
    Supposedly, the laws of physics we know were not determined until after the big bang. If they broke down for similar reasons somewhere within a black/white/worm hole, then no, no kind of matter is going to "traverse the space" intact. Meaning the "connected" universes could have somewhat different physical laws due to different sets of elementary particles. So the connection here would only be a bizarre spacial one -- if the two universes do not even share the photon (a fundamental elementary particle) then no information of any sort could connect them. Just the logic of space time.

    I think the Schwarzschild wormholes are distinct from the concept of a/the universe being spawned by (and in that sense "within") a black hole in another universe. The "entry point" into our universe would just be the whole thing (bizarre abstract spacial relation), and there would be no corresponding exit point -- once within the universe, it is effectively infinite, as if contained by an event horizon.
    C programming resources:
    GNU C Function and Macro Index -- glibc reference manual
    The C Book -- nice online learner guide
    Current ISO draft standard
    CCAN -- new CPAN like open source library repository
    3 (different) GNU debugger tutorials: #1 -- #2 -- #3
    cpwiki -- our wiki on sourceforge

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