VS2010 vs VS2008

This is a discussion on VS2010 vs VS2008 within the General Discussions forums, part of the Community Boards category; >The intellisense for it is rock solid, even in the face of things like boost, etc. Of course, the instant ...

  1. #16
    Code Goddess Prelude's Avatar
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    >The intellisense for it is rock solid, even in the face of things like boost, etc.
    Of course, the instant you try to write anything remotely non-trivial in C, you'll want to go back to a previous version until they fix the bugs.
    My best code is written with the delete key.

  2. #17
    Super Moderator VirtualAce's Avatar
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    2008 bugs/changes that annoy me
    • Multi-thread compiles fail quite often. One or more of the threads fail to close certain files thus causing mt.exe to return an error thus causing your compile and link to fail. Sometimes it requires you close MSVS and re-open it. Other times it just requires a rebuild.
    • Project settings include/lib paths. If you have multiple projects in a solution and you attempt to change paths on a non-startup project the path is relative to where the startup vcproj is located. It should understand that when you click on a different project that it should use the location of it's vcproj as the starting point. What this amounts to is you cannot rely on the auto-complete for include paths and linker paths in any non-startup project within a solution. 2003 and 2005 do not suffer from this problem and I hope 2010 does not either.
    • Intellisense looks to be the same as 2005. Hardly any changes/improvements except on the C# side.
    • C# keywords are still picked up and color coded in a C++ project
    • Does not flag certain comments and place on the task list during compile as 2003 did
    • Does not allow you to alter project settings in memory without setting the file to writeable. Very annoying when working with SCM software. 2003 and 2005 allowed project alterations and then when you would compile it would tell you the project file is read-only at which point you would check the file out. This new behavior forces you to check the file out before making project setting alterations and this is the only time 2008 requires this. For all other file types it will allow you to alter them in memory and then when you compile it will show the read-only dialogs. I think they did this b/c of complaints where one could accidentally click somewhere in the solution explorer and grab something accidentally and place it somewhere else.


    2005 bugs/changes that annoy me
    • Does not pick up changes in cpp files and/or header files when you attempt to start with debugging. It should pick up the changes and recompile those specific cpp's but often it does not. This usually results in you scratching your head as to why your program acts as if you didn't change anything yet your code shows that you did.
    • Intellisense is marginally better than 2003. Function browser finally works.
    • C# keywords are picked up in C++ projects and are color coded.
    • Does not flag certain comments and place on the task list during compile as 2003 did - only works for currently open documents...essentially worthless since you would have to open every file in your project to get this to work.
    • With 3rd party integrated tools it often creates two separate entries on the taskbar and one has no title at all but does have the VS2005 icon.


    2003 bugs/changes that annoy me
    • Using wchar_t as an intrinsic type. In 2003 even if you failed to check this option and used wchar_t it would compile. This is b/c several CRT files typedef'd wchar_t to unsigned short. However the mangled names is where the problem comes in. If you mix a 2005, 2008, or 2010 DLL that is setup to use wchar_t as an intrinsic type and attempt to have a 2003 app that does not have wchar_t setup as an intrinsic type link with those DLLs your project will not link. It is b/c the 2003 compiler incorrectly allows you to compile but the linker will be looking for unsigned short instead of wchar_t. So when it attempts to link with the 2005, 2008, or 2010 DLLs it will be looking for unsigned short...not wchar_t. Huge bug in 2003. You can't fix it by typedef'ing unsigned short to wchar_t in the 2005, 2008, or 2010 DLLs b/c it won't compile. B/c those compilers will correcty see wchar_t as an intrinsic type your code is essentially trying to typedef one intrinsic type to another intrinsic type which flags a syntax error.
    • Buggy with respect to wchar_t in the project file. If you never touch the setting in your compiler it will not have any entry for this setting in the xml. However if you set it to TRUE, apply, and then to FALSE, you will see the setting magically appear in your vcproj file. Not really a game killer but annoying when you go to merge project files and wonder why one is different from the other.
    • VS2003 will not report a warning on warning level 4 when in fact there should be one reported. On my dev box and one one of my team's dev box our codeline flagged a warning like this but on every other dev box in the company it does not flag the warning and yet they have the same settings and the same exact block of code. I even diffed our project files with theirs and the only difference was the wchar_t entry and header and library paths (since our project was adding some new stuff). I still have not figured out why VS2003 is not reporting the warning on other compilers when in fact it is most certainly a valid warning. It also makes me wonder how many other warnings it has missed.
    • 2003's STL flags warnings on warning level 4 which sucks if you have warnings as errors. I believe this is fixed in later compilers.
    • C# projects can get completely hosed after a few project saves. Using C# in 2003 is akin to playing Russian roulette with your project. You may open it one day to find out the .cs layout won't load and/or is completely corrupted.
    • Allows fully qualified names on enumerations. Problem here is when migrating to 2005+ this will cause a compile failure since 2005, 2008, and 2010 do not require nor allow fully qualified enumeration names.
    • Does not require fully qualified names on member function pointers. 2005, 2008, and 2010 all require fully qualified names for member function pointers.
    • Certain 3rd party integrated tool windows pop up at startup but can never be found and clicked after startup
    Last edited by VirtualAce; 05-29-2010 at 10:22 PM.

  3. #18
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Good memory Bubba! I only wish.

    It should understand that when you click on a different project that it should use the location of it's vcproj as the starting point.
    Fixed, from what I could see. This too was a problem to me as I worked through most of 2008 with a multiproject solution.

    Multi-thread compiles fail quite often. One or more of the threads fail to close certain files thus causing mt.exe to return an error thus causing your compile and link to fail. Sometimes it requires you close MSVS and re-open it. Other times it just requires a rebuild.
    I use /MP very seldom because most of my builds are incremental. Besides my dependency trees aren't wide enough to actually take advantage of it. However I seem to read somewhere about this problem and learning that it's got something to do with hyperthreading. So, instead of using # of virtual processors (which is the default figure VS will try to calculate), you may want to fix yourself the number to threads to open, by forcing it to ignore hyperthreading. That is:

    1 processor, dual core = 2 cores = 4 virtual processors with hyperthreading.

    So, set processMax to 2, thus ignoring hyperthreading. And see if that works better for you. Of course, this does render /MP a little less useful. But it's faster than having to redo a build.

    Disclaimer: Again, I totally am not sure about this being the actual problem. I'm working from memory...

    EDIT: Oh, and another thought. This may be also a function of the OS. Seven is announced to come with better and fixed hyperthreading. So... don't yell at me... upgrading to Windows 7, may deal with it.
    Last edited by Mario F.; 05-30-2010 at 09:01 AM.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  4. #19
    Super Moderator VirtualAce's Avatar
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    Good memory Bubba! I only wish.
    Eh you give me more credit than is due. I work with one or more of these compilers in C++, managed C++, or C# pretty much every day. After doing this for a few years you begin to take note of the various differences between the compilers and the bugs they have.

    Fixed, from what I could see. This too was a problem to me as I worked through most of 2008 with a multiproject solution.
    Really? I have 2008 SP1 and it still has this problem. If it is fixed or we can remedy it please let me know how so I can pass it on to my team. We are totally annoyed at this issue right now.

  5. #20
    Woof, woof! zacs7's Avatar
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    So would it be worth a few GB download for 2010? I have 2008, but I have legal access to both professional editions. I'm more interested on the familiarity side of things... i.e.

    Given that the chance they have 2010 is 50%, and 2008 is 50%. Would it be better training on 2008 then having to use 2010, or conversely, training on 2010 and having to use 2008?

  6. #21
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    I don't think it's really that important.

    It's not like they are going to fire you just because you are used to 2008 and they use 2010.

    I am doing internship at a game company (started a few weeks ago) as developer.

    They are all very friendly people, and certainly don't mind questions, or learning on site.

    Most of my work so far has been in C#, because the shipping C++ code is finalizing, so they wouldn't let me touch that =P.

    I have never used C# before. Never written a line of code. No idea what it's all about.

    Learned the basics in 2 hours on the first day, and by the second day, I've already added somewhat significant (as in, changing a few source files ) features to a C# program.

    Oh, and I used GCC + command line before, and have never seriously used a version control system.

    I'd say don't worry about 2008 vs 2010 (or maybe they are still using 2005, like my company, who knows? Industry always moves slow). Stick with GCC. Smaller download .

  7. #22
    Cat without Hat CornedBee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
    2005 bugs/changes that annoy me
    • C# keywords are picked up in C++ projects and are color coded.
    Are you sure those are C# keywords and not C++/CLI keywords?
    All the buzzt!
    CornedBee

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  8. #23
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
    Really? I have 2008 SP1 and it still has this problem. If it is fixed or we can remedy it please let me know how so I can pass it on to my team. We are totally annoyed at this issue right now.
    I meant fixed on the 2010 version. I didn't go through that extensively. But from all I could gather that problem no longer exists in VS 2010.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  9. #24
    Super Moderator VirtualAce's Avatar
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    Are you sure those are C# keywords and not C++/CLI keywords?
    Could be. I haven't investigated it all that much and have become accustomed to ignoring it.

  10. #25
    Registered User lpaulgib's Avatar
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    Sorry to bring a dying thread back up but I was wondering something about VS. I'm currently running Code::Blocks on Windows 7. After a debate a while ago with some guys about running linux over Windows, I dual partitioned openSUSE with Windows 7 on my Vaio. I would have put Ubuntu 10.04 on it, but alas they having a running graphics card issue with NVIDIA, and I wouldn't have access to anything other than X term.

    Not my point though.... So I've been hanging around my Windows 7 side more often just to watch videos I have saved on there, and I started coding pretty much everything with CodeBlocks and it's working perfectly fine. I'm learning smoothly and having no problems.

    Since I'm a beginner and a self learner, I'm not sure that I want to port over to Linux quite yet and make the full transition on OSes. So I'm wondering about Visual Studios. If I want to get serious into programming, is it worth getting involved in Visual Studios and start learning in that environment? Or should I just stick with Codeblocks?


    Also sidenote.... I was wondering if anyone knows anything about Slackware and BSD? I was thinking about changing from openSUSE to Slackware or BSD just because I hear they are more techi and stuff. Any personal experience?

  11. #26
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    IDEs just don't matter.

    Learn to program, not to use an IDE.

    I've been using GCC on the command line for all my programming life (5 years?) and was recently required to use Visual Studio at work. Learned the basics in about half an hour, and can use it pretty efficiently after a day.

    Learning to program takes much longer, and switching to Visual Studio certainly doesn't help (like you might have heard on this board, Visual Studio and Microsoft encourage you to write non-standard compliant programs, making transitions to other environments later more difficult).

    I would stick with CodeBlocks. It has a Linux version, too, so you won't have to learn a new IDE when you switch.

  12. #27
    Registered User lpaulgib's Avatar
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    Yeah that was something i noticed. I saw a lot of books out there like "Learn Visual C++" blah blah blah, and it seemed like it's completely different. I do plan on eventually doing some professional programming when I get out of college, but I'm going to be an Engineering major. So I won't be doing too much programming.

    I just want to make sure I'm headed in the right direction by advice from people who've been there already.

  13. #28
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    I'm doing electrical engineering major, and do game programming full time now (internship).

    Never know... =P.

  14. #29
    Registered User lpaulgib's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyberfish View Post
    I'm doing electrical engineering major, and do game programming full time now (internship).

    Never know... =P.
    Yeah I'm looking to get into biomedical engineering with another BS in Physics. It's a dual degree program out of GA Tech. I want to get into the cardiac field.

  15. #30
    System Novice siavoshkc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mario F
    I will always fail to understand this fixation in altering player environments from version to version in a lot of software. It's a complete productivity fail and often an offense to long time users. If you are going to change the colors or your interface, just for the sake of changing, at least make it optional, for pete's sake.
    Yes I believe a program should choose a beautiful interface and never change it.
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