Scientists create artificial life

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  1. #61
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    The ideal god I would like to believe in is one that leads by example. One that is not so intolerating that he threatens to throw people into hell just because they don't believe him.

    "Love everyone else even if they don't love you. BUT, if you don't love ME... you are in DEEP trouble."

    Even I have higher moral standards than that. When people don't believe in me, I don't typically try to make their life miserable.

    IMHO truth doesn't need believing.

    The earth is round (to the best of my knowledge) whether you believe it or not. If God is just like that, why can't he just do what he is doing to everyone, regardless of their belief? Why does he need people to believe him? Or does he? Or was it the church?

    The church seems to be the only one benefited here. Like MK27 pointed out, they can only control believers. That's power.

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    By the way, I'm only using Christianity as an example here because it's the topic of discussion.

    I believe it's the same with other organized religions, too. Buddhism in particular (buddhist teachings also have similar threats).

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyberfish View Post
    The ideal god I would like to believe in is one that leads by example. One that is not so intolerating that he threatens to throw people into hell just because they don't believe him.

    "Love everyone else even if they don't love you. BUT, if you don't love ME... you are in DEEP trouble."

    Even I have higher moral standards than that. When people don't believe in me, I don't typically try to make their life miserable.

    IMHO truth doesn't need believing.

    The earth is round (to the best of my knowledge) whether you believe it or not. If God is just like that, why can't he just do what he is doing to everyone, regardless of their belief? Why does he need people to believe him? Or does he? Or was it the church?

    The church seems to be the only one benefited here. Like MK27 pointed out, they can only control believers. That's power.
    Ok, I just need to respond to this one thing.
    As a matter of fact, the God that I believe in does lead by example. He came down to earth as a man, and died for all his people. That was an act of love, and also an example. By laying down His life for others, He showed the greatest love one could have. The flip-side of that is to follow that example, one has to be also willing to lay down their lives for other people as well (maybe not physically, but more as in giving up some of your time to help others). That is the greatest example God ever showed to humankind.
    And moreover, I don't think God throws people in hell solely because they don't love him. He throws people in hell because of the way they acted during the time they spent on earth, and for not obeying the gospel. And what is the gospel, in so many words? The gospel is the act of loving one other, and obeying God's other commandments (which are all designed to bring about good things for us down here). And, also, I don't think God actually needs people to believe him, per se. Its more about what we need...i.e. if we believe God, it ends up helping us because God blesses us for it, and we grow stronger in faith, and end up doing more good things in life, and so on, and so on.
    However, if the whole time we spend in this life, we're just creating trouble for other people, and doing negative things, etc., as opposed to doing positive things, helping others, etc., than we're not fit for his kingdom, because He is a holy God, and evil can not be in the hearts of anyone he allows into His kingdom. Hence, he throws all un-repented evil workers (including the Devil, the originator of evil, and his angels/demons) into a hell, and then later into a lake of fire.
    Last edited by Programmer_P; 05-22-2010 at 01:54 PM.

  4. #64
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Programmer_P View Post
    However, if the whole time we spend in this life, we're just creating trouble for other people, and doing negative things, etc., as opposed to doing positive things, helping others, etc.
    What happens if I just obey the gospel partially. i.e. I love people, but I am judgmental and threaten them with divine punishment when the end of days come?
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    What happens if I just obey the gospel partially. i.e. I love people, but I am judgmental and threaten them with divine punishment when the end of days come?
    Good one.
    Fortunately, I already repented for that...
    And actually, I wasn't trying to be judgmental, it just kind of came out that way.
    Duly noted to not express my views on God that way again.
    Last edited by Programmer_P; 05-22-2010 at 02:08 PM.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Programmer_P View Post
    If by "poor bastards", you mean people, then there were no people before biblical times, because Adam and Eve were the first two humans, and I don't care if you try to insist that the earth has been around for "billions of years" because "the scientists say so" because you (and they) are wrong. And no, I never said everyone's damned if they haven't read a book. You're putting words in my mouth. Its more about believing and obeying God. And I do believe that every good work of men is rewarded by God, regardless of what their personal feelings are regarding Him. As to whether or not they get into the kingdom, though, that's a whole 'nother matter, and one I will leave up to the individuals to figure out.
    Okay, but can you really blame others for having "faith" in the scientific process? I mean, if scientists insisted on rejecting experimental results simply because they don't agree with their beliefs, we wouldn't see much progress, would we (think "geocentrism")? Moreover, since faith has little to do with logical deduction, it's meaning probably shouldn't be interpreted in such terms. That's basically why the creation-vs-evolution debate is quite pointless - the two concepts are simply incompatible.


    Quote Originally Posted by Programmer_P View Post
    My intent is not to "crush others", as you put it.
    Okay, fair enough, but just keep in mind that it has certainly been used in such a way in the past. As long as your faith is tempered with tolerance, no problem, IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
    While you and I agree on our views of God we obviously approach the matter from two different angles. For me you are far too accusatory, demeaning, and uppity for me to even listen to you.

    There is no need to defend a God who does not need defending. He isn't going to lose sleep tonight over this. It is not your job to defend him but it is your job to show His love to others and this just isn't the way to do it. Above all God is about love not about being right or being wrong or proving to others that he exists. God isn't science, faith isn't science, and nothing you say can change that so why try?

    As well we do not know how long of a time span Genesis actually covers. The word used for 'day' in Genesis actually means an undetermined amount of time. In other words the author of Genesis was not citing a scientific fact that the earth was created in seven literal days. Genesis isn't a scientific treatise on how the earth was created. That is not the intent of the book nor the intent of the author of the book. To say otherwise is to pull all of Genesis out of context and miss the true meaning of it. So how old is the earth? Who cares? It has no bearing on belief. You think just b/c you could prove the earth was young that somehow something will click in someone's head and then they will believe? Pure nonsense. You don't come to God on pure mental assent. It requires faith and that requires indiv. choice. Honestly the way Genesis is written and worded it nearly supports the idea of a big bang. Not a big bang as in the scientific theory but very close. It makes it sound as if there was nothing and then all of a sudden there was something. Not too far off from the big bang theory that scientists promote. Both parties agree that at one point there was nothing....and at another point there was something.

    If you want my advice I recommend you calm down a bit and take it down a notch. Getting into a shouting match with people isn't going to prove anything. Step back and realize that your beliefs are merely being challenged here and if you cannot argue them sensibly and calmly then I, too, question if you really understand what it is you do believe. So essentially just chill out and think a bit before throwing out phrases and sentences you heard in some over-hyped church sermon. This isn't church and it isn't the place for that type of stuff. Note that I'm not saying this as a moderator but I'm saying this as a fellow believer and giving you some very good advice. I remember the days when I had more zeal than brains and really all that happens is you end up pushing people away from the church and ultimately from God. I know that is not your intent and understand your passion but it must be tempered. Just b/c you believe one way does not mean you have the right to be disresepctful and rude to others to convey those beliefs.
    Exactly!
    Code:
    #include <cmath>
    #include <complex>
    bool euler_flip(bool value)
    {
        return std::pow
        (
            std::complex<float>(std::exp(1.0)), 
            std::complex<float>(0, 1) 
            * std::complex<float>(std::atan(1.0)
            *(1 << (value + 2)))
        ).real() < 0;
    }

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyberfish View Post
    One that is not so intolerating that he threatens to throw people into hell just because they don't believe him.
    That is not what Christians believe though. They believe that you just go to hell. A lot will tell you that hell is just the absence of God. In a way he is suppose to save you if you deserve it not punish you i.e. if there was no God it is implied that we would all go to hell. Furthermore, it is not generally believed that unbelievers will go to hell. The whole meaning is for the son of God to come to earth and save human beings.

    So as you said truth doesn't need believing. You don't have to believe that there is a big deep hole in your yard. You will still fall though in it. That is similar what the Christian religious belief is. How you can avoid this deep hole is another story. Depends how you interpret the scriptures, your believes etc etc. So Christians believe that you have to actually know the hole exist, thus believe in its existence, others believe that as long as you are generally cautious its OK.

    Apparently, if I go tell you "the world will explode in 10 years, here is my plan, costs 100$ and I ll save you" you will laugh at me. Because you don't believe the world will explode in 10 years. I you believed though it will explode in 10 years then you will welcome the plan, see if it worth it and maybe buy it. So if somebody doesn't feel he needs the saving, why believe in Christianity? He probably shouldn't.

    My point being that their are some people that crave to find answers in life. Find hope. Believe in the afterlife. Religious satisfies such a need. So you always have to consider the alternative. Having no religion. For some people a not-so-good religion is better than having no religion. So even if they believe their God is all strict and vengeful, there solution is to be more careful. If you have to offer to these kind of people something better some of them will consider it. That is why people change religions. But if you offer them something worst (for them not having a religion) they won't accept it

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by C_ntua View Post
    My point being that their are some people that crave to find answers in life. Find hope. Believe in the afterlife. Religious satisfies such a need. So you always have to consider the alternative. Having no religion.
    I'm always bewildered by this idea that religion makes life more meaningful. Seems to me that the "spiritual" dimension is poor compensation for all the irrational strictures you must bear. Just the reality of being alive and contemplating the improbability of all that is is enough to make my head spin -- sometimes truth is stranger than fiction, as they say. The world is "naturally" beautiful to me, because I'm of it. I really could not even dream up any "questions" to which religion would provide an answer. Also seems to me that if a lot of Fundamentalists could learn to appreciate the reality of life they might be able to get their heads out of whatever tortured fantasy space it currently resides in.

    Occam's razor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    C programming resources:
    GNU C Function and Macro Index -- glibc reference manual
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    Current ISO draft standard
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK27 View Post
    I'm always bewildered by this idea that religion makes life more meaningful. Seems to me that the "spiritual" dimension is poor compensation for all the irrational strictures you must bear.
    In fact it is a good compensation. I can at least speak for that.

    Human beings are very prone to spirituality. Whatever the reasons for this are, it serves as a zone of comfort from the harshness of the world "outside". You could argue so does alcohol and drugs. And in fact, some people look for them for those exact reasons.

    I can guarantee you I would find moments in my life of great comfort. And there was a feeling of comfort knowing that someone higher was looking for me, excusing my faults and looking out for the bad guys. My problem with the whole thing however is that because it makes me feel good, makes me feel more secure, doesn't mean it's more true. Like drugs and alcohol. If at some point in life one's pragmatism surges over their spirituality, there's a conflict of interests with religion. A very profound one. And so agnosticism, or the more extreme atheism, are born.

    The world is "naturally" beautiful to me, because I'm of it.
    This is my "doctrine" too. Things are beautiful because we are a part of them. My eldest daughter (the more sensitive of the two) once asked why were flowers beautiful. Why there weren't ugly flowers?

    Well, I tried to explain to her that there are indeed ugly flowers. But once you learn about them, how they are born, how rare some of them are, and how important they are to some animals, they will start looking beautiful to her too. Like the snakes and spiders some so hate, but my daughter learned to love and respect for everything they represent.

    It's this knowledge of the things that creates a bond between what we are and what they are. That bond turns ugly into beautiful. And fear into admiration. Knowledge is the key to love.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK27 View Post
    I'm always bewildered by this idea that religion makes life more meaningful. Seems to me that the "spiritual" dimension is poor compensation for all the irrational strictures you must bear. Just the reality of being alive and contemplating the improbability of all that is is enough to make my head spin -- sometimes truth is stranger than fiction, as they say. The world is "naturally" beautiful to me, because I'm of it. I really could not even dream up any "questions" to which religion would provide an answer. Also seems to me that if a lot of Fundamentalists could learn to appreciate the reality of life they might be able to get their heads out of whatever tortured fantasy space it currently resides in.

    Occam's razor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Sometimes, the more you understand the world, the less beautiful you see it. The mystery and the excitement is gone. Saying the mountain is God's creation makes it more exciting. "I am Hercules, the son of Zeus" sounds far more thrilling than "I am Hercules, the son of Bob". One of the reasons people create gods and myths is because they make life more interesting and beautiful.
    So even if the world is beautiful enough, it can become more beautiful.

    But, the Christian religion makes death more meaningful, not life. In afterlife reality and fiction are the same thing.
    Last edited by C_ntua; 05-22-2010 at 05:13 PM.

  11. #71
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    And, also, I don't think God actually needs people to believe him, per se. Its more about what we need...i.e. if we believe God, it ends up helping us because God blesses us for it, and we grow stronger in faith, and end up doing more good things in life, and so on, and so on.
    Ah I see. Didn't know that. Learning something new . Thanks.

    That's good to know. I guess there's really no reason for me to believe, then, since I am already a good person (by some incredibly subjective measure), without his help.

    I love trying new things, and believing in God seems to be at least fairly interesting. Too bad I just can't bring myself to believe (by choice), just because it would be nice to.

    Come to think of it, over the last few years many of my friends have asked me what keeps me "good" if I don't believe in any supernatural being. Why don't I go shooting random people and burning down houses.

    I really don't know. Part of it would be the consequences, but many bad things can be done without consequences, and I still don't do them.
    Last edited by cyberfish; 05-22-2010 at 06:50 PM.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyberfish View Post
    Come to think of it, over the last few years many of my friends have asked me what keeps me "good" if I don't believe in any supernatural being. Why don't I go shooting random people and burning down houses.
    Well, if you think about it a little you'll have to agree that something is already seriously wrong with us if our measure of good and evil is defined by our ability to kill people and burn their houses.

    We seem to be distancing from good when what separates us from evil is some of the worst actions one can take.

    Since you do sound to me like a real nice guy, I think it's best if you define your actions on more mundane (and a lot more relevant) aspects of goodness. Like, do you help the needy? Are you friendly? Do you listen to people? Do you suffer through a stranger suffering? Does injustice angry you? et cetera... Essentially "measure" your capacity for love and empathy.
    Last edited by Mario F.; 05-22-2010 at 07:11 PM.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  13. #73
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    I always wanted to ask atheists, what do they think about exorcism?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dotunix View Post
    I always wanted to ask atheists, what do they think about exorcism?
    Those aren't demons -- they are alien entities from the 11th dimension, masquerading in our mythologies. They don't have to leave either, they just get a kick playing games with the holy.
    C programming resources:
    GNU C Function and Macro Index -- glibc reference manual
    The C Book -- nice online learner guide
    Current ISO draft standard
    CCAN -- new CPAN like open source library repository
    3 (different) GNU debugger tutorials: #1 -- #2 -- #3
    cpwiki -- our wiki on sourceforge

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    Indeed. I guess it was just exaggeration, and what they meant is, what is it that keeps me "good"?

    I'm friendly, and loves helping people out, most of the time , and I can certainly sympathize. I guess it's selfish. I do it because it makes me feel good about myself. If every time I help other people, I feel like crap, I probably won't do it anymore.

    Am I alone? If you (any religious person) get a guaranteed ticket to heaven, or the paradise of your religion, would you stop doing good?

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