Scientists create artificial life

This is a discussion on Scientists create artificial life within the General Discussions forums, part of the Community Boards category; I literally slept through I Robot. It's almost definitely a better book, but I haven't read it. I am familiar ...

  1. #46
    Registered User whiteflags's Avatar
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    I literally slept through I Robot. It's almost definitely a better book, but I haven't read it. I am familiar with the Three Laws as well, and even more familiar with how they don't work. But I cannot understand what you really want to say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by whiteflags View Post
    I literally slept through I Robot. It's almost definitely a better book, but I haven't read it. I am familiar with the Three Laws as well, and even more familiar with how they don't work. But I cannot understand what you really want to say.
    The point is, i Robot shows a scenario where humans create robots that are almost as smart as (if not smarter) humans, initially with them being the servants of the humans. The robots are given tree rules to follow, which they are NEVER (under any circumstances allowed to break).
    The rules basically keep the robots "in line", and prevent them from causing humans any harm.
    However, eventually one robot is given a very powerful brain that makes it smarter than all robots (this is the "evil" robot behind the whole robot plan, of whom you don't find out about until the end of the movie), and decides that the logic behind one of the rules can be avoided or circumvented, thereby allowing all the other robots (controlled by the "evil" robot) to attack and murder humans.

    The robot that saves the day (with the help of humans, of course...) is another robot designed to be unique in that this particular robot can have emotions, which has the same creator of the "evil" robot (which was killed by that robot).

    To simplify the answer, every time humans attempt to create imitation life, it always ends up trying to destroy its creators...
    And it doesn't help any if the fake life forms are given the same rights as humans, now does it...

    Side note: Anytime I see any kind of robot trying to act like a human, I will be insulted and will surely shoot it with a shotgun.

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    I am genuinely curious - what makes you believe in God?

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    Wait. I slept through I Robot, so if you would express your opinion another way or with a better movie I would be grateful.
    Hahahaha. Nice. How about a movie like um.....2012. Oh wait you said a better movie than I Robot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by C_ntua View Post
    Let me try to put the topic back in place.

    Do you think it is unethical to create an artificial non-human life? A human life?
    If we created an artificial life, should it have any less "rights" of a natural one?
    Would you consider living any form of robot (for example one with a very advanced A.I.)?

    My opinion would be "No", "Depends", "No", "No".
    1) In principle, no, but my final answer really depends on the ultimate purpose of the creation.
    2) See #1
    3) See #4
    4) No way. A computer is simply not aware of the instructions that it executes, as it's own thoughts and intentions...AI is nothingmore than a cleverly designed illusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Programmer_P View Post
    Haha, I got in this discussion before with someone else.
    This time I'll just admit it:
    Yes, there is nothing I can say which will make you believe in a God if you don't have the faith to believe that He is and is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
    Nor could you possibly provide me any evidence that would convince me he doesn't exist, though I invite you to do so as well.

    The way I see it, there are 2 groups of people:

    1. A group which believes in God.
    2. A group which does not.

    Its obvious that you fall in Category 2. And I have no doubt that if you were to take the numbers of Group 1 and Group 2, and compare the 2, there would probably be more people in Group 2. Which I think is one of the reasons why Jesus said, "Broad is the way which leadeth to destruction, and many there be that find it, and narrow is the way that leadeth to eternal life, and few there be that walk in it" (may not be an exact quote, but you get the gist)...
    Personally, I don't care what you believe. You can believe whatever you want. However, one day it will be found out who really knew the truth and who didn't. Jesus is truth, and He is life. All men are liars, of that there is no doubt. Only God is true, and by Him is all truth made known.
    The truth is undisputable, though many try to dispute it, yet do so to their own destruction. One day Jesus will return in flaming fire, taking vengeance on them that know not God, and who obey not the gospel. On THAT day, all will know that Jesus (the Lamb of God) exists, and who will be made King over the whole world. The Kingdom of God is righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. The New Jerusalem (the Lamb's bride) will descend down out of heaven from God to Earth, and in this holy city there will be the Tree of Life, which when men will eat of it, will cause them to live forever. And this world will no longer be full of corruption, evil, greed, pain, or any unpleasant thing (like it is today), but will dwell forever into eternity free of all that.
    At the beginning of the whole world, man was given the opportunity to eat of this same tree, but sinned and ate instead of the tree which God commanded them (i.e. Adam and Eve) not to eat of, and was driven out of the garden. And man has been sinning ever since...

    That is the gospel of peace, the gospel which Paul preached. And to that end all true Christians look for and earnestly hope for.

    (Read the Bible)
    So what happens to the poor bastards who lived before biblical times, or those who live in corners of the Earth where no translations of the Bible exist? The friends of Helen Keller who weren't nearly as gifted? The illiterate? The autistics? Are they all to be damned to Hell simply because they haven't read a book? Anyway, if you are right, that your God condemns even the very finest souls based on such a criteria, I say that he (she/it) must be nothing more than the Devil in disguise. Sorry!

    And I don't mean to give the impression that I don't believe in the power of faith; I feel the spirit force every moment of every day, and can attest to it's powers. It's just that I don't think it has much to do with the ideosynchratic details contained in some book. If the book leads you to enlightenment, great - mission accomplished. But if it drives you to crush others, simply because they do not believe your ideaology, then I think that your religion (or your interpretation of it) has failed you (spiritually).

    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
    Hahahaha. Nice. How about a movie like um.....2012. Oh wait you said a better movie than I Robot.
    Heheh, yeah, I Robot was a good plot poorly executed, and 2012, well, didn't have much of a plot in the first place...
    Code:
    if( numeric_limits< byte >::digits != bits_per_byte )
        error( "program requires bits_per_byte-bit bytes" );
    24bbs.cpp

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    Huh, that looks like a heavy debate.

    1. A group which believes in God.
    2. A group which does not.
    That means at least 4 billion people are going to hell for not believing in your God even though many are quite good persons.

    So what happens to the poor bastards who lived before biblical times, or those who live in corners of the Earth where no translations of the Bible exist? The friends of Helen Keller who weren't nearly as gifted? The illiterate? The autistics? Are they all to be damned to Hell simply because they haven't read a book? Anyway, if you are right, that your God condemns even the very finest souls based on such a criteria, I say that he (she/it) must be nothing more than the Devil in disguise. Sorry!
    This is a good point. I personally don't know (but I suspect not) if a god exists or not, but if he does, I'd rather think he is not like the one described in the bible. He won't care if you just lie to a NAZI officer in World War II when he asks you if you hid jews in your house even if a very, very old stone tablet tells you not to.
    Neither should he when you abort your child because its survival chances are very low - and yours, too, if you give birth - something that happens frequently in Africa. I personally hate the Vatican for what they infiltrate those poor people.

    About death... If god is biblic, then death is not actually a bad place, unless you have had one little sin, in which case it is a bit uncomfortable (too exaggerated IMO). So killing a well-living Christian who always wanted to go to heaven, but he couldn't kill himself cuz that's a sin should not send you to hell. I think that would get rid of most fundamentalists, be it Christian or Muslim or Jewish.

    Muslims are supposed to be allowed to kill others for their belief but that's not true. Even 1 muslim victim of a terrorist attack will send you to hell and steal your virgins.

    I know, strange.

    But have you ever thought about the true size of the Universe? If not, then I can't help you. Thinking in terms of billions of galaxies with a _truly_ huge number of stars each - and not about just one planet - will change your perspective of the Universe. So god created these vast spaces (and probably aliens, too) just for our amusement when he knows that traveling to the next point of interest is right now impossible and would always be if we listened to everything the Vatican said.

  7. #52
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whiteflags View Post
    I literally slept through I Robot. It's almost definitely a better book, but I haven't read it. I am familiar with the Three Laws as well, and even more familiar with how they don't work. But I cannot understand what you really want to say.
    The books are, of course, very good. The movie is, as expected, pretty bad. You did well sleeping through it.

    As for the books themselves, they are essentially a dissertation on the human-robot relationship on a society that was capable of creating self-sufficient robots. The books become in fact a satire of our own human existence and our inability to control behavior through laws. At the core of the robots programming there are a set of what had been called Perfect Laws that together guarantee no robot will ever come to harm a human being. They are so perfect and so intimate with the robots own existence, that they will invariable be altered by these to mean "no robot should allow harm to come to mankind"... and with that give room to a Robot takeover of mankind... for their own protection. Sounds familiar?

    The books are extremely well written, as one would expect from Isaac Asimov. I strongly suggest them to you. That is just one of the core concepts of the books and very loosely explained by me here. Isaac Asimov explores many other aspects and in much greater detail through philosophy and dialectics. You'll recognize much of the human philosophical thinking since the Greeks.

    So, this has really nothing to do with robots taking over mankind. That's the only thing our uneducated societies get from the movie, because that's the only thing the movie could in fact give them. That's what they have been trained to like; shallowness with a bang.

    Nothing much more. That's why it is one big snore.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Programmer_P View Post
    The way I see it, there are 2 groups of people:

    1. A group which believes in God.
    2. A group which does not.

    Its obvious that you fall in Category 2. And I have no doubt that if you were to take the numbers of Group 1 and Group 2, and compare the 2, there would probably be more people in Group 2. Which I think is one of the reasons why Jesus said, "Broad is the way which leadeth to destruction, and many there be that find it, and narrow is the way that leadeth to eternal life, and few there be that walk in it" (may not be an exact quote, but you get the gist)...
    Personally, I don't care what you believe. You can believe whatever you want. However, one day it will be found out who really knew the truth and who didn't. Jesus is truth, and He is life. All men are liars, of that there is no doubt. Only God is true, and by Him is all truth made known.
    The truth is undisputable, though many try to dispute it, yet do so to their own destruction. One day Jesus will return in flaming fire, taking vengeance on them that know not God, and who obey not the gospel. On THAT day, all will know that Jesus (the Lamb of God) exists, and who will be made King over the whole world. The Kingdom of God is righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. The New Jerusalem (the Lamb's bride) will descend down out of heaven from God to Earth, and in this holy city there will be the Tree of Life, which when men will eat of it, will cause them to live forever. And this world will no longer be full of corruption, evil, greed, pain, or any unpleasant thing (like it is today), but will dwell forever into eternity free of all that.
    At the beginning of the whole world, man was given the opportunity to eat of this same tree, but sinned and ate instead of the tree which God commanded them (i.e. Adam and Eve) not to eat of, and was driven out of the garden. And man has been sinning ever since...

    That is the gospel of peace, the gospel which Paul preached. And to that end all true Christians look for and earnestly hope for.

    (Read the Bible)
    Your god is one evil bastard, isn't he? I mean, really, I'd rather have an eternity in hell than one minute with one vengeful S.O.B. that wants my guts. At the very least, your devil doesn't hide what it really is. Whereas your god looks and acts pretty much like half of the prisoner population in USA.

    tsk, tsk.

    All men are liars[...]The truth is undisputable
    Ah, thanks for coming clean on that. So you are just a liar.
    Truth is indeed indisputable. The problem however is finding truth, no? You obviously are way lost in that journey. Beyond redemption, even. Like a lost traveler that doesn't even want to come home when it is pointed at him.

    [be fearful speech...]
    You know, it's not really your fairy tale God that I fear. It's people like you that I fear. I really do. It's no joke. If you were spreading your gospel in the middle of the street, I'd move my children away from your presence with my fatherly arm. I would try to cross the street, or otherwise try to avoid your presence.

    I do not find you disgusting, I see in you just another human being. But I fear you for what you have become and the harm you can cause to those around you.

    You are the product of our society and it's not your fault. You prove the social anathema that says it takes all sorts of people to make up the world. But you and your lot is one of the most dangerous of all.

    But I'm the devil. And I speak these things to elude you and convince others to the anti-christ. Am I not?
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  9. #54
    Super Moderator VirtualAce's Avatar
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    Anyway, if you are right, that your God condemns even the very finest souls based on such a criteria, I say that he (she/it) must be nothing more than the Devil in disguise. Sorry!
    Very good questions indeed. I remember discussing this very thing in college during one of our non-snooze fest theo classes.There is some evidence in the Bible for what is know as the age of accountability which would most likely apply to those who are incapable of understanding right from wrong. Unfortunately that was some time ago so I cannot remember the particular passages in the Bible that reflect this type of thinking.

    Essentially what the discussion amounted to was do babies go to hell? I missed the latter part of the discussion b/c I really got tired of it and skipped the last few classes where it was discussed. Funny part was I told my prof. I was skipping due to the conversation and he himself wanted to skip out with me. Hahaha. Good times. Anyways the crux of the idea is that those who do not have the ability to choose right from wrong would not be held accountable. Note that introducing this type of theology is fraught with issues since it brings up the issue of people who are medically insane and what have you but it's real intent is for children and mentailly impaired people who really are unaware of right and wrong. Note that the principle is also hotly debated b/c what criteria is used to determine what age is appropriate and one age cannot be applied to all people since everyone is different and at different maturity levels.

    It is not something that is oft preached b/c the Biblical backing for it is a bit vague and you aren't supposed to teach anything that isn't Biblical based. However there is some evidence in scripture to support such an idea but it's not something you are going to go and build a denomination off of. So the answer to your question according to what I have studied, believe, and was taught is that those types of people are not what I would call at the age of accountability so the normal laws of right and wrong or of righteousness and sin do not apply to them. Keep in mind it is up to God to judge and I since I believe God is a loving God as opposed to a sick kid just waiting to zap people when they screw up...it is my estimation that God would welcome these people to himself.

    But again all this requires a bit of faith b/c I cannot prove to you in one post this age of accountability. It also will not make sense to anyone who does not believe in what the Bible says b/c the theological presumption here is that what the Bible says is true and all other experience is null and void when weighed against scripture. If you are not accustomed to faith then that is probably going to be a stretch for you. Again like I've said a million times there is no way to understand all of God b/c it requires faith. If it didn't then believing in God would be like science in that you could prove it...and you just can't and trying to do so is ignorant b/c faith and religion are not science. They require faith - I am ok with that and will not try to sway anyone to the contrary. So if you do not have faith then anything I tell you based on the Bible is just going to be words.

    Sorry for the theological rant. I respect everyone's right to choose one way or another but understand that for me to explain something using principles you do not believe in is really an excerise in futility. I do not believe God is a mean God nor do I believe he is just waiting to pull our limbs off and watch us suffer like some sick kid playing with an ant. However nothing I can say or do will 'force' you to believe otherwise. People don't believe in something they cannot see b/c they are 'forced' to and that isn't how it's supposed to be anyways. People ultimately must choose faith. So while I can give you a dissertation on faith or the age of accountability it isn't gong to mean much to those who don't believe. It's all about personal choice....and I respect your right to choose to believe and choose not to believe.

    So you see not all Christians are mindless people who don't think about hard issues. I welcome them and enjoy discussing them b/c your choice to believe or not believe does not offend me in the least.
    I wish more well-meaning people in the church understood this principle instead of relying on coercion to convey their message.


    ....and what is it with this weekend and the super deep threads we have? I must say I enjoyed the pac-man post the most b/c it took the least amount of thought. Hehe....GD is wearing me out this week.
    Last edited by VirtualAce; 05-22-2010 at 11:22 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sebastiani View Post
    1)
    So what happens to the poor bastards who lived before biblical times, or those who live in corners of the Earth where no translations of the Bible exist? The friends of Helen Keller who weren't nearly as gifted? The illiterate? The autistics? Are they all to be damned to Hell simply because they haven't read a book? Anyway, if you are right, that your God condemns even the very finest souls based on such a criteria, I say that he (she/it) must be nothing more than the Devil in disguise. Sorry!
    If by "poor bastards", you mean people, then there were no people before biblical times, because Adam and Eve were the first two humans, and I don't care if you try to insist that the earth has been around for "billions of years" because "the scientists say so" because you (and they) are wrong. And no, I never said everyone's damned if they haven't read a book. You're putting words in my mouth. Its more about believing and obeying God. And I do believe that every good work of men is rewarded by God, regardless of what their personal feelings are regarding Him. As to whether or not they get into the kingdom, though, that's a whole 'nother matter, and one I will leave up to the individuals to figure out.
    And I don't mean to give the impression that I don't believe in the power of faith; I feel the spirit force every moment of every day, and can attest to it's powers. It's just that I don't think it has much to do with the ideosynchratic details contained in some book. If the book leads you to enlightenment, great - mission accomplished. But if it drives you to crush others, simply because they do not believe your ideaology, then I think that your religion (or your interpretation of it) has failed you (spiritually).
    My intent is not to "crush others", as you put it. I'm only defending the God I know and love...not that He needs me to defend Him. He could just as easily snuff the life out of you right this moment, but fortunately for your sake, He's much more merciful than that, and doesn't desire than any should perish. He wishes all men everywhere to be saved from eternal damnation, but it is really up to the individual to determine where he/she ends up...
    Last edited by Programmer_P; 05-22-2010 at 12:08 PM.

  11. #56
    Super Moderator VirtualAce's Avatar
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    If by "poor bastards", you mean people, then there were no people before biblical times, because Adam and Eve were the first two humans, and I don't care if you try to insist that the earth has been around for "billions of years" because "the scientists say so" because you (and they) are wrong. And no, I never said everyone's damned if they haven't read a book. You're putting words in my mouth. Its more about believing and obeying God. And I do believe that every good work of men is rewarded by God, regardless of what their personal feelings are regarding Him. As to whether or not they get in the kingdom of not, though, that's a whole 'nother matter, and one I will leave up to the individuals to figure out.
    While you and I agree on our views of God we obviously approach the matter from two different angles. For me you are far too accusatory, demeaning, and uppity for me to even listen to you.

    There is no need to defend a God who does not need defending. He isn't going to lose sleep tonight over this. It is not your job to defend him but it is your job to show His love to others and this just isn't the way to do it. Above all God is about love not about being right or being wrong or proving to others that he exists. God isn't science, faith isn't science, and nothing you say can change that so why try?

    As well we do not know how long of a time span Genesis actually covers. The word used for 'day' in Genesis actually means an undetermined amount of time. In other words the author of Genesis was not citing a scientific fact that the earth was created in seven literal days. Genesis isn't a scientific treatise on how the earth was created. That is not the intent of the book nor the intent of the author of the book. To say otherwise is to pull all of Genesis out of context and miss the true meaning of it. So how old is the earth? Who cares? It has no bearing on belief. You think just b/c you could prove the earth was young that somehow something will click in someone's head and then they will believe? Pure nonsense. You don't come to God on pure mental assent. It requires faith and that requires indiv. choice. Honestly the way Genesis is written and worded it nearly supports the idea of a big bang. Not a big bang as in the scientific theory but very close. It makes it sound as if there was nothing and then all of a sudden there was something. Not too far off from the big bang theory that scientists promote. Both parties agree that at one point there was nothing....and at another point there was something.

    If you want my advice I recommend you calm down a bit and take it down a notch. Getting into a shouting match with people isn't going to prove anything. Step back and realize that your beliefs are merely being challenged here and if you cannot argue them sensibly and calmly then I, too, question if you really understand what it is you do believe. So essentially just chill out and think a bit before throwing out phrases and sentences you heard in some over-hyped church sermon. This isn't church and it isn't the place for that type of stuff. Note that I'm not saying this as a moderator but I'm saying this as a fellow believer and giving you some very good advice. I remember the days when I had more zeal than brains and really all that happens is you end up pushing people away from the church and ultimately from God. I know that is not your intent and understand your passion but it must be tempered. Just b/c you believe one way does not mean you have the right to be disresepctful and rude to others to convey those beliefs.
    Last edited by VirtualAce; 05-22-2010 at 12:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brafil View Post
    Huh, that looks like a heavy debate.


    That means at least 4 billion people are going to hell for not believing in your God even though many are quite good persons.
    Your words, not mine...
    This is a good point. I personally don't know (but I suspect not) if a god exists or not, but if he does, I'd rather think he is not like the one described in the bible. He won't care if you just lie to a NAZI officer in World War II when he asks you if you hid jews in your house even if a very, very old stone tablet tells you not to.
    As a matter of fact, the Bible you just referenced does not give a commandment not to lie, and I think in certain circumstances, it is ok to lie. For example, Rahab lied to protect the two spies who went to spy out Canaan, and the Bible describes her in very good terms. It is really a matter of conscience. Is your conscience telling you that shouldn't have just lied?
    Neither should he when you abort your child because its survival chances are very low - and yours, too, if you give birth - something that happens frequently in Africa. I personally hate the Vatican for what they infiltrate those poor people.

    About death... If god is biblic, then death is not actually a bad place, unless you have had one little sin, in which case it is a bit uncomfortable (too exaggerated IMO). So killing a well-living Christian who always wanted to go to heaven, but he couldn't kill himself cuz that's a sin should not send you to hell. I think that would get rid of most fundamentalists, be it Christian or Muslim or Jewish.
    Why? So there's no one down here but atheists...?
    Muslims are supposed to be allowed to kill others for their belief but that's not true. Even 1 muslim victim of a terrorist attack will send you to hell and steal your virgins.

    I know, strange.

    But have you ever thought about the true size of the Universe? If not, then I can't help you. Thinking in terms of billions of galaxies with a _truly_ huge number of stars each - and not about just one planet - will change your perspective of the Universe. So god created these vast spaces (and probably aliens, too) just for our amusement when he knows that traveling to the next point of interest is right now impossible and would always be if we listened to everything the Vatican said.
    As a matter of fact, I have, and I know that is much bigger than this tiny planet, and all the tiny little humans on it, of whom which are little more than specks in God's eyes. But each one of those specks, God loves, even the one that just made all those statements against Him...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
    While you and I agree on our views of God we obviously approach the matter from two different angles. For me you are far too accusatory, demeaning, and uppity for me to even listen to you.

    There is no need to defend a God who does not need defending. He isn't going to lose sleep tonight over this. It is not your job to defend him but it is your job to show His love to others and this just isn't the way to do it. Above all God is about love not about being right or being wrong or proving to others that he exists. God isn't science, faith isn't science, and nothing you say can change that so why try?
    You make some valid points, and I probably should just leave this discussion right now.
    As well we do not know how long of a time span Genesis actually covers. The word used for 'day' in Genesis actually means an undetermined amount of time. In other words the author of Genesis was not citing a scientific fact that the earth was created in seven literal days. Genesis isn't a scientific treatise on how the earth was created. That is not the intent of the book nor the intent of the author of the book. To say otherwise is to pull all of Genesis out of context and miss the true meaning of it.

    If you want my advice I recommend you calm down a bit and take it down a notch. Getting into a shouting match with people isn't going to prove anything. Step back and realize that your beliefs are merely being challenged here and if you cannot argue them sensibly and calmly then I, too, question if you really understand what it is you do believe. So essentially just chill out and think a bit before throwing out phrases and sentences you heard in some over-hyped church sermon. This isn't church and it isn't the place for that type of stuff. Note that I'm not saying this as a moderator but I'm saying this as a fellow believer and giving you some very good advice. I remember the days when I had more zeal than brains and really all that happens is you end up pushing people away from the church and ultimately from God.
    More good points. I will be silent now, and only watch this thread.
    All I was doing was expressing my views on the subject, which is little more than anyone else was doing. But I understand that I might have went about it the wrong way.

    You're right, and I will shut up now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brafil View Post
    The ethnic debate over artificial life and artificial intelligence has been going on for a long time.
    Are they now debating did they create a African American or Mongolian cell or what?

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    You're right, and I will shut up now.
    No worries, it's all good.

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