PcLinuxOS - best Linux desktop ever

This is a discussion on PcLinuxOS - best Linux desktop ever within the General Discussions forums, part of the Community Boards category; Originally Posted by lpaulgib I find it amazing you forget the idiot proof point and click GUI for every Microsoft ...

  1. #31
    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lpaulgib View Post
    I find it amazing you forget the idiot proof point and click GUI for every Microsoft program. It's usually only 3 or 4 mouse clicks and it's done.
    But there is absolutely no standard for those things and no guarantee that an uninstall works. Part of the purpose of distro package management is to correct such errors by individual developers. The distro's also keep track of security risks and other problems -- they are contributing a very significant oversight layer.

    Anyway, I consider this:

    apt-cache search some_package
    apt-get install package

    easier than:

    - finding a website
    - downloading a package
    - playing with some wonky GUI interface that may be different each time.

    So you have skipped a few steps that have to occur before you get to the apparently easy point and click, which you can save yourself all that trouble with one quick powerful command. Or two. Especially if you are working over a network via ssh, in which case you get no GUI.

    Then, subsequent to all that, you can use the standard interface offered the package manager (by which I mean, yum or apt) to query stuff like what files a package installed, where they are located, etc.

    yum:
    repoquery --list package
    apt:
    dpkg-query -L package

    Ba-boom, done. And like I said, one of those two works on EVERY linux system. Any and all distros.

    Seriously: learn to love the command line. You will thank yourself for it later. You're a programmer, that tish shouldn't scare you. Also it's a great way to understand the fundamental elements of the system. You're a programmer: you should do that.
    Last edited by MK27; 05-18-2010 at 12:10 PM.
    C programming resources:
    GNU C Function and Macro Index -- glibc reference manual
    The C Book -- nice online learner guide
    Current ISO draft standard
    CCAN -- new CPAN like open source library repository
    3 (different) GNU debugger tutorials: #1 -- #2 -- #3
    cpwiki -- our wiki on sourceforge

  2. #32
    Epy
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    Quote Originally Posted by lpaulgib View Post
    As I watch all of you talk about the ease of doing command line installs.... I find it amazing you forget the idiot proof point and click GUI for every Microsoft program. It's usually only 3 or 4 mouse clicks and it's done.
    Yeah, I can still install multiple programs at the terminal with one line while you go and download and install all of the applications separately.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epy View Post
    Yeah, I can still install multiple programs at the terminal with one line while you go and download and install all of the applications separately.
    Good thing only one file is needed then, an .exe or an .msi, you have fun with you dependencies then ;-)
    How I need a drink, alcoholic in nature, after the heavy lectures involving quantum mechanics.

  4. #34
    Registered User lpaulgib's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epy View Post
    Yeah, I can still install multiple programs at the terminal with one line while you go and download and install all of the applications separately.
    Realize I'm not talking about a programmer's needs. I get that I could get more use out of a Linux machine. I've used it, and understand it. Don't care for it though. It's like the nerds version of a Mac. Instead of being the most snobby, it's who's the most geeky. I'm talking about 90% of America. Who installs multiple programs on a daily basis? Burning an ISO off a pre-installed Windows to undo what has been done for them makes no sense. Windows 7 came with my PC. It's a pain in the ass to hunt down a good distro, burn the ISO's, lose everything I already have.....only to gain something that isn't as compatable, has less support, and doesn't really do anything that I need to do.

    Linux does a horrible job of selling itself. """Oooh you can command line multiple downloads""" ""Oooh you can look at nothing but text on Bash and uninstall things more thoroughly""". That's not what America wants though. Windows comes pre-installed on most PCs, is geared towards the masses, and is available. Someone earlier mentioned the Office suite I think. Openoffice.org... works on windows too you know. I know of it because it was the ONLY program that ran Word documents on Linux at the time.

  5. #35
    Epy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neo1 View Post
    Good thing only one file is needed then, an .exe or an .msi, you have fun with you dependencies then ;-)
    Which are automatically installed from the repositories as well?

  6. #36
    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lpaulgib View Post
    Realize I'm not talking about a programmer's needs. [...] I'm talking about 90% of America.
    As dumb as they want to be? WHO CARES. Anyway, I wouldn't assume about all that, you are just repeating bland cliches about what users "want". Keep doing that and they just might conform, like good consumers

    It's a pain in the ass to hunt down a good distro, burn the ISO's,
    I suppose it was easier to earn the $1000 bucks you paid for the computer so that you can treat it as another opportunity to turn your brain off because you are too tired to think from earning the money you need to buy all these toys and tools that make your life "easier". Dumbass viscous circle. That's all. You'd be better off doing sudoku on the couch. Or is that not "cool" enough for you?

    Linux does a horrible job of selling itself. """Oooh you can command line multiple downloads""" ""Oooh you can look at nothing but text on Bash and uninstall things more thoroughly""". That's not what America wants though. Windows comes pre-installed on most PCs, is geared towards the masses, and is available.
    Linux is not fast food, and it is not a commercial product. That's part of the point. It is a fairly unique phenomenon in this sense. The idea that it has to be sold or promoted to people is just silly. Take it or leave it, but please -- there is no "marketing budget" and I hope there never is.

    America is the birthplace of disposable crap and purile consumerist drivel of the worst sort. Maybe you have heard of the obesity problem and the steady decline in educational performance? I don't think "what America wants" deserves any kind of attention at all unless you are out to make money feeding animals deep fried cheese. Stimulus-response is not a sound foundation on which to orient the design of a computer operating system. And notice -- this OS is free. No money to make here! Move on. Take your marketeer savviness to KFC and point/click at the big shiny board over the counter. Burp.
    Last edited by MK27; 05-18-2010 at 03:37 PM.
    C programming resources:
    GNU C Function and Macro Index -- glibc reference manual
    The C Book -- nice online learner guide
    Current ISO draft standard
    CCAN -- new CPAN like open source library repository
    3 (different) GNU debugger tutorials: #1 -- #2 -- #3
    cpwiki -- our wiki on sourceforge

  7. #37
    Epy
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    Quote Originally Posted by lpaulgib View Post
    Insert generic anti-linux banter here
    First off, Abiword and StarOffice came out before OpenOffice did, so you're wrong there. Also, the point was that most linux distros have preinstalled FREE FULLY FUNCTIONAL office programs/suites (be it OOo or Gnumeric + Abiword, or whatever else), not chopped down trial versions. Most things that you need are already there.

    These are the things that I need that are Windows specific:

    Active@ Hard Disk Monitor. SMART diagnostic & HDD health control software for Windows XP Vista 2003 Server 2008...

    CCleaner - Optimization and Cleaning - Free Download

    UtilFr – Clavier+ 10.6.1

    Defraggler - File and Disk Defragmentation - Free Download

    The Official ImgBurn Website

    PDFill PDF Editor with FREE PDF Writer and FREE PDF Tools - www.PDFill.com

    Tracker Software Products :: PDF-XChange Viewer

    PeerBlock – Peerblock Site

    Recuva - Undelete, Unerase, File and Disk Recovery - Free Download

    [den4b] Denis Kozlov

    Software – Sweet Dreams | Sven Bader – Design & Software

    2BrightSparks | SyncBackSE

    UNLOCKER 1.8.9 BY CEDRICK 'NITCH' COLLOMB

    These are the things I need that are Linux specific:

    Audacious - An Advanced Audio Player

    gtk-gnutella - The Graphical Unix Gnutella Client

    iplist

    WineHQ - Run Windows applications on Linux, BSD, Solaris and Mac OS X (only for Mp3tag)

    Every other program I need is cross-platform:

    7-Zip

    Audacity: Free Audio Editor and Recorder

    Evolution

    Firefox Browser | Free ways to customize your Internet

    Octave

    MP3 Diags

    Mp3tag - the universal Tag Editor (ID3v2, MP4, OGG, FLAC, ...)

    OpenOffice.org - The Free and Open Productivity Suite

    Pidgin, the universal chat client

    Scintilla and SciTE

    VirtualBox

    VLC media player - Open Source Multimedia Framework and Player

    You just don't get it. I can install linux on any machine, run my little installation script and tweak the power settings and that's it. There's so much more to tweak and so much more time and effort required with a fresh install of Windows.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epy View Post
    Which are automatically installed from the repositories as well?
    Sure, some are. Not all.
    How I need a drink, alcoholic in nature, after the heavy lectures involving quantum mechanics.

  9. #39
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    The guys who don't like Linux come with things like "Linux is less compatible." That is funny - I would bet money that Linux runs on more systems than Windows does. If you say that there is software that won't run on Linux that will run on Windows, fine - I will give you that, but really, is that a fault of Linux? Has it got anything to do at all with Linux being a crappy OS? If a software company codes something that works on Windows, and does not give support for Linux, whose fault is it if it does not work on Linux? I mean seriously, if there was some app that only ran on Apple computers, would you bash Windows because it couldn't run it?

    Or maybe the "incompatible" talk refers to hardware - like wifi and such. Still a no go - if the vendor of the hardware makes no driver for Linux, whose fault is it that it won't run? I don't get mad if I buy something with hardware that does not work on Linux. If I bought it without knowing whether or not it was supported on Linux, then I have to eat it. If I want to be sure it is supported I buy stuff that I know works. Such is the case with my computers at this time.

    As an aside, I am kind of glad some things are not compatible with Linux. I bought an HP computer with Windows 7, and I am sick and tired of the nagware put on there by HP and Norton (again, this is not the fault of Microsoft - at least not directly) that I actually hate booting into Windows. The only reason I use Windows is to run Dragon Naturally Speaking - now that Nuance makes a dictation product for Macs, I see no reason to keep a Windows install around at all.

    Now if some of you people like Windows, thats great. I have no problem with that, but don't go bashing Linux guys because it is the cool thing to be anti-Linux.

  10. #40
    Registered User lpaulgib's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kermit View Post
    The guys who don't like Linux come with things like "Linux is less compatible." That is funny - I would bet money that Linux runs on more systems than Windows does. If you say that there is software that won't run on Linux that will run on Windows, fine - I will give you that, but really, is that a fault of Linux? Has it got anything to do at all with Linux being a crappy OS? If a software company codes something that works on Windows, and does not give support for Linux, whose fault is it if it does not work on Linux? I mean seriously, if there was some app that only ran on Apple computers, would you bash Windows because it couldn't run it?

    Or maybe the "incompatible" talk refers to hardware - like wifi and such. Still a no go - if the vendor of the hardware makes no driver for Linux, whose fault is it that it won't run? I don't get mad if I buy something with hardware that does not work on Linux. If I bought it without knowing whether or not it was supported on Linux, then I have to eat it. If I want to be sure it is supported I buy stuff that I know works. Such is the case with my computers at this time.

    As an aside, I am kind of glad some things are not compatible with Linux. I bought an HP computer with Windows 7, and I am sick and tired of the nagware put on there by HP and Norton (again, this is not the fault of Microsoft - at least not directly) that I actually hate booting into Windows. The only reason I use Windows is to run Dragon Naturally Speaking - now that Nuance makes a dictation product for Macs, I see no reason to keep a Windows install around at all.

    Now if some of you people like Windows, thats great. I have no problem with that, but don't go bashing Linux guys because it is the cool thing to be anti-Linux.

    I would think it's a problem of Linux having too many different distros. I'm not just spouting Linux hate. If I were running a server or anything requiring REAL work, I'd go with Linux. For regular PC use.. Don't see the need.

    And yeah MK, I'm in college, working full time, and married with a 2 year old. I have NO desire to think when it comes to checking Fark and Cracked after work. I just want to click a giant logo and see entertaining stuff. I absolutely love my consumer crap. My new IPod is great!

    I really do get it. I just think it's unfair to paint Windows in this light like it's the most junk thing in the world. I've yet to see how it's that bad for most people. And I would love to see Linux get in the game and take up a good portion of the market and have the right resources easily at my disposal.

    I bet you guys couldn't even agree on a distro if I asked you which one was best.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by lpaulgib View Post
    I would think it's a problem of Linux having too many different distros. I'm not just spouting Linux hate. If I were running a server or anything requiring REAL work, I'd go with Linux. For regular PC use.. Don't see the need.

    I really do get it. I just think it's unfair to paint Windows in this light like it's the most junk thing in the world. I've yet to see how it's that bad for most people.
    I think I can agree with you on some of this. I actually wouldn't recommend Linux to anyone. Not that it is bad, but it is not Windows. So often people are encouraged to switch to Linux (when Windows worked fine for them) - they try it and, after a bad experience, they not only turn away, but have scorn for it too. I have a name for these types of people - YAILH: Yet Another Inoculated Linux Hater. Now I will grant that things are a lot better these days, (I even know a 60+ year old lady who got Ubuntu working for herself) but there is still a lot to know to make the Linux experience pleasant. This knowledge typically presents a steep learning curve and for those who don't care to learn what it takes, it is an insurmountable obstacle. So I don't recommend it. I figure if someone wants to learn all the little things it takes to get a Linux system up an running, they will, they will stick with it, and they will get there under their own steam. For those who are happy without it, that's great.


    Quote Originally Posted by lpaulgib View Post
    I bet you guys couldn't even agree on a distro if I asked you which one was best.
    This is one aspect of what makes Linux great, IMO.

  12. #42
    Registered User lpaulgib's Avatar
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    All this Linux talk got me looking around... Since when did Redhat cost money? Looks like they jumped the boat. I ran Redhat all through high school on my desktop.

  13. #43
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    I think you could always give Red Hat money for support, which is what they are selling now. Fedora branched off and basically became free Red Hat. Read more here.

  14. #44
    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lpaulgib View Post
    I really do get it. I just think it's unfair to paint Windows in this light like it's the most junk thing in the world. I've yet to see how it's that bad for most people. And I would love to see Linux get in the game and take up a good portion of the market and have the right resources easily at my disposal.

    I bet you guys couldn't even agree on a distro if I asked you which one was best.
    Like I said before, the distro's are 99% identical once you understand the system. I believe most of them were conceived for one of two reasons:
    1) some bunch of reasonably curious and capable people thot it would be an interesting and beneficial pastime
    2) politics within the community WRT what the platform "is about"

    Anyway, glad you weren't upset by my last screed I'm perhaps in a minority of linux users in believing that it will be bad for it in the long run to "popularize" itself too much. I think it already has a robust and sustainable user base and that people will continue to be attracted to it in the future just like they were in the past. There is no need to try and pitch it or attract even more people. Like I said, there are no shareholders who will benefit, it's not a stock you can purchase, so achieving a greater market share is just a macho goal.

    I think the problems you think might be corrected by attending to such a goal are not really problems with the system, they are just because you are new to it. This is not to say that there are no problems. Consider that "linux" of course refers to the kernel and the history of linux kernel development is unprecedented. But the issues there have very little to do with ease of use desktop-y issues, and which distro does what how. In reality, it's those things that have made the platform the success that it is. The desktop is just a side show.

    Quote Originally Posted by kermit View Post
    I think I can agree with you on some of this. I actually wouldn't recommend Linux to anyone.
    I've said this here before a few times. Well, I might recommend it to someone in particular, but in general, no way. I have friends who have windows computers at home and the whole family uses them and such and I'd be nuts to think I'd be doing them a favor by recommending they switch to linux.

    Quote Originally Posted by lpaulgib View Post
    Since when did Redhat cost money? Looks like they jumped the boat. I ran Redhat all through high school on my desktop.
    They forked into fedora, which is more or less the same thing, and kept the brandname for Redhat, which the money you pay is for support. It's for businesses, servers, that kind of stuff. They haven't really jumped any boats. Redhat is still (by necessity) all GPL licensed software, so there is nothing illegal about "pirating" it. Then you get no support, of course, which might be hassle if you are running a commercial server and cannot afford me (actually you could probably afford me, but get the picture). This is what "not free as in beer means". Recently GNU and the FSF have dropped the term "open source" and gone with the more specific "free software". Sometimes the term "libre" is used because I believe in the romance languages there are two words for "free", with slightly different connotations. One of them is where we get liberated. So free as in "out of jail" and not necessarily "cost $0". The jail here AFAICT has to do with intellectual property laws, which GNU is dead set against particularly as it has come to be applied to software. The goal nothing has whether or not a distro wants to charge money. That's totally permissible.

    As an analogy, think what would happen if musicians had to actually perform instead of just collecting royalties, because all their recorded material was freely reproducible under law. Would fewer musicians become multi-millionaires for little or no reason? Yes. It would be very hard to make all that money if you actually had to work for it. Would the quality of music (not it's stock market value) in general be better? Almost certainly, because only people who really wanted to work as performing musicians would stick it out.

    If only someone had the gumption and foresight to foresee what pure greed would do to "the entertainment industry", we'd probably be living in a much more interesting world. So thank the universe for GNU/linux! Alternative philosophies.
    Last edited by MK27; 05-18-2010 at 07:00 PM.
    C programming resources:
    GNU C Function and Macro Index -- glibc reference manual
    The C Book -- nice online learner guide
    Current ISO draft standard
    CCAN -- new CPAN like open source library repository
    3 (different) GNU debugger tutorials: #1 -- #2 -- #3
    cpwiki -- our wiki on sourceforge

  15. #45
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK27 View Post
    If only someone had the gumption and foresight to foresee what pure greed would do to "the entertainment industry", we'd probably be living in a much more interesting world. So thank the universe for GNU/linux! Alternative philosophies.
    I laugh and my first thought is to the Animal Farm; human nature, being what it is.

    What a load of crap, MK.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

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