Flash on Apple Devices Discussion

This is a discussion on Flash on Apple Devices Discussion within the General Discussions forums, part of the Community Boards category; But the whole patenting thing worries me. Of course Microsoft supports H.264. They are part of the group that gets ...

  1. #16
    Just a pushpin. bernt's Avatar
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    But the whole patenting thing worries me. Of course Microsoft supports H.264. They are part of the group that gets the money (as is Apple, I'm afraid). And anyone wanting to include support for H.264 will have to cough up the money. And then, only for some: if Mozilla payed the ($5 million, I think) money to include H.264 they couldn't use it because of their open source status.
    Sounds like gif. Even though there are alternatives, and even though they might be arguably better than the patented technology, people are still going to use the expensive licensed software if for no other reason than to say that they are using the expensive licensed software.
    Consider this post signed

  2. #17
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Yup, that's quite a good comparison, actually. And just like GIF, H.264 is actually a great technology they have there. I wouldn't dare say otherwise. (Well, GIF was great back in the day. Not just anymore.)

    And this is where the whole patenting thing in the US gets in our face. Because you then have an alternative called Theora that makes a much better candidate for an open web standard, by virtue of its open source nature. However it is constantly under fire by right-holders accusing it of violating patents. No surprise there, Theora could potentially run their precious standard out of the way. However, because of the claims against Theora, this has been making some people nervous to adopt it... and so, Theora looses the battle.

    What really annoys me about this whole thing is that unless someone can come up with a full side-by-side comparison of a H.264 generated assembly for those sections they say are being infringed upon H.264 by Theora, there's no patent infringement. And because no one actually ever did that, Theora is put out of the race for a standard by the simplest and most obscene FUD.

    ...

    Now, I'm not your Open Source friendly fanboy. I happen to believe a lot of what is open source is complete crap. I'd trade open source for a close source alternative without even thinking (and I have many times) if that gives me a better product and one I can rely on without forcing into constant update cycles or bugs no one feels responsible for. Ultimately, for the most part, I want tools that work for me and rarely I'll choose a tool that forces me into being a part of the development process. But, seeing a closed source video format being pushed in this way, while "everybody" cheers (many of them strong supporters of open source alternatives) just because they happen to like the iPhone or iPad or whatever crap Apple is pushing them this time, really irritates me. We have a good and reliable open source alternative that would work for an open web standard... and no one is noticing. It's the Consumer Greed thing at its best: The toy takes priority over their beliefs. They just want their iFarts and their YouToons and if these use H.264 then they don't care anymore. It's Apple and Google. And everybody likes Apple and Google.

    And this is what that f*, Steve Jobs, has to say about Theora. Notice the FUD: Is Apple Planning A Move Against Ogg Theora? | News & Opinion | PCMag.com
    Last edited by Mario F.; 05-01-2010 at 07:00 PM.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  3. #18
    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
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    Very astute, thanks Mario. I am sadly agreeing that most likely lawyer & lobbyist bucks will decide this for everyone, the US judicial/legal system is simply too fundamentally corrupt to permit any other outcome.
    Last edited by MK27; 05-01-2010 at 07:03 PM.
    C programming resources:
    GNU C Function and Macro Index -- glibc reference manual
    The C Book -- nice online learner guide
    Current ISO draft standard
    CCAN -- new CPAN like open source library repository
    3 (different) GNU debugger tutorials: #1 -- #2 -- #3
    cpwiki -- our wiki on sourceforge

  4. #19
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    Um, I'd like to point out that my last post had nothing to do with a particular preference towards one codec or the other. I was only trying to show that flash might not have such a firm grip of how video is or will be delivered that I got from your previous post mario. Lot's of ihate here it seems lol.

  5. #20
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Yes, I understood your post. I was just adding to my earlier thoughts. It wasn't a direct reply to you.

    And yes, you could say that I'm honing my skills in Apple distaste. Not really hate, but I can live with that word too. The thing is that Steve Jobs can only fool the fools when he argues for open standards when justifying removing Flash support (and actually banning it from Apple Store legible applications), and then with the poker face of a dead poker player support H.264 -- a proprietary, fully patented and high royalties format -- when there's an actual open alternative.

    There's a bit more to do also with all these itoys he's been pushing around and the manner they are being pushed. But that has nothing to do with this particular thread.
    Last edited by Mario F.; 05-01-2010 at 07:33 PM.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    ..justifying removing Flash support (and actually banning it from Apple Store legible applications), and then with the poker face of a dead poker player support H.264; a proprietary, fully patented and high royalties format whe there's an actual open alternative.
    It has never been available, so it's not like it's removed suddenly now. (I'm talking about the portable i-prefixed stuff)

  7. #22
    Epy
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    Flash on Android 2.2, to hell with Apple. Adobe/Android phones should do a commercial saying something like "All your favorite time killing flash games are now available on your Android phone, kthx"

  8. #23
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subsonics View Post
    It has never been available, so it's not like it's removed suddenly now. (I'm talking about the portable i-prefixed stuff)
    What stuff are you talking about then? Because the Adobe-Apple marriage going south thing is relatively recent. "Never been available" is not true at all.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    What stuff are you talking about then? Because the Adobe-Apple marriage going south thing is relatively recent. "Never been available" is not true at all.
    No, flash has never been available on the phones or ipods. Lot's of discussions about that should be available as far back as when the first phone was released some 3 years ago, so it should be easy to look up if you are interested. I believe the reason for the recent drama is that people was expecting (perhaps) that it would be available on the ipad. Jobs have also made some non official statements like "Adobe is lazy" and so on, regarding fixing security issues, so it's been heating up recently leading to this open letter from Jobs.

    Now, another thing entirely, that you perhaps are confusing with this, is that with the release of the new SDK, they have changed their policy on 3rd party middleware. From now, the only languages they approve on their app store for the mobile devices, ie phones and ipods are: C, C++, and Objective-C, and only Apple frameworks, no interpreted languages. Now, if by chance someone made a Flash to C converter, that will of course be affected, but that can only be good lol.
    Last edited by Subsonics; 05-03-2010 at 06:47 PM.

  10. #25
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subsonics View Post
    No, flash has never been available on the phones or ipods.
    It has been availabe. It just so happens Apple never got around to actually commit to CS5 as we recently learned.

    Now, another thing entirely, that you perhaps are confusing with this, is that with the release of the new SDK, they have changed their policy on 3rd party middleware. From now, the only languages they approve on their app store for the mobile devices, ie phones and ipods are: C, C++, and Objective-C, and only Apple frameworks, no interpreted languages. Now, if by chance someone made a Flash to C converter, that will of course be affected, but that can only be good lol.
    I'm fully aware of the language limitations. I mentioned that much on my very first post on this thread, if you care to go back and read it. But here we are discussing something different. Apple had an unspoken commitment to CS5 that lead many people to believe Flash would be available on all the iFarts (iPhone, iPad, iComethNext).

    I'm not inclined to discuss Apple's decision to pull the plug (or rug) on Flash beyond what I already said. I don't care much for Flash myself. I think you are the one missing the whole point of my presence here. Banning Flash has an actual effect on the users of Apple's devices. They...can't...see...Flash. And Flash has a significant presence in the web. If Apple says Adobe was being lazy and Adobe says Apple wasn't showing them enough of the platform, I don't care. What I do care is that other direct competitors of Apple are supporting Flash. And that's where I'll be shopping if It ever comes the time I need such a device.

    This is Macintosh all over again. Apple trying to define what people should and shouldn't use, when the world out there really is moving at a different tune. And this is why Apple never became anything more than a second grade company -- Hipster bait -- once the novelty of its innovations (and innovative they are. This much I agree) are absorbed by the competition.
    Last edited by Mario F.; 05-03-2010 at 07:57 PM.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  11. #26
    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
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    Interesting news today that the ipad sold 1M units in 4 weeks, which actually beats the iphone.

    Even if you don't like apple, this demonstrates lots of people are still only too happy dropping $$$ on computers.
    C programming resources:
    GNU C Function and Macro Index -- glibc reference manual
    The C Book -- nice online learner guide
    Current ISO draft standard
    CCAN -- new CPAN like open source library repository
    3 (different) GNU debugger tutorials: #1 -- #2 -- #3
    cpwiki -- our wiki on sourceforge

  12. #27
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    My brother... well, he has this thing going on with his car. I swear they make love, but couldn't ever catch him on the act. Anyways, he's eagerly awaiting for the 3G version to reach Europe. He's planning to use it as a GPS on his car.

    Now, the fact that the only iPad he plans to buy is to be put on his car and work as a GPS device gave me the biggest grin. Not that I don't agree with him. I'm actually going to be jealous. He had a great idea if you come to think of it. That's GPS on steroids and with a bigger screen to boot. But I couldn't help notice the irony of the whole thing.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    It has been availabe. It just so happens Apple never got around to actually commit to CS5 as we recently learned.
    These are shoehorned into the platform by some conversion tool. Flash has never been available on their phones or mp3 players. There were lots of drama about it when the iPhone was first released. Besides that it's evident by anyone who ever used an iPhone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    I'm fully aware of the language limitations. I mentioned that much on my very first post on this thread, if you care to go back and read it. But here we are discussing something different. Apple had an unspoken commitment to CS5 that lead many people to believe Flash would be available on all the iFarts (iPhone, iPad, iComethNext).
    What has CS5 got to do with Apples dev tools?. What you discuss now are peoples beliefs and perceived unspoken commitments ie speculations. So they aren't in fact pulling the plug on anything that has ever been on the market. And this is just specific for their mobile segment, apple just a week ago released a new graphics hardware access api for people like Adobe for os X and macintosh. Adobe will accelerate Flash video using new Apple API

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    I'm not inclined to discuss Apple's decision to pull the plug (or rug) on Flash beyond what I already said. I don't care much for Flash myself. I think you are the one missing the whole point of my presence here. Banning Flash has an actual effect on the users of Apple's devices. They...can't...see...Flash.
    Like I said before, these arguments has been on the internet since the first iPhone came out, since you have never been able to watch flash content on the internet on an iPhone, trust me. Thats why they had special applications for youtube for example. Somehow it hasn't stopped them from selling them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    And Flash has a significant presence in the web. If Apple says Adobe was being lazy and Adobe says Apple wasn't showing them enough of the platform, I don't care. What I do care is that other direct competitors of Apple are supporting Flash. And that's where I'll be shopping if It ever comes the time I need such a device.
    Yes, it's good to have a choice. Personally I would never base that on flash alone, I block it on a regular basis in my browser. It's about 90% banner commercials that I miss out on, I never play flash games, and and the occasional video on youtube is taken care of by h264 and webkit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    This is Macintosh all over again. Apple trying to define what people should and shouldn't use, when the world out there really is moving at a different tune. And this is why Apple never became anything more than a second grade company -- Hipster bait -- once the novelty of its innovations (and innovative they are. This much I agree) are absorbed by the competition.
    You are wrong. A phone or other handheld device is much more special purpose than a desktop pc. Most other mobile smartphone makers have adopted Apples model, an appstore and an os. I'm thinking about Nokias store and os, android and their store, and intels new dev platform with windows and moblin. I think I'm from the same generation as mk (re walkman), and I remember fondly different platforms like atari and commodore. If you control both the os and your hardware you can innovate and bring new things to market without meddling with your os maker. I like to have a choice, why is that a problem to you? You clearly don't like their products, just get something else, wtf. I like macintosh it's a fully posix compliant desktop, it comes with lots of languages and dev tools pre installed, it has some of it's core tech available as open source. Of course in a way that benefits their business, surprise, but that is true for any company that uses open source. They have made some contributions like webkit, openCL and Darwin, launchd for example.
    Last edited by Subsonics; 05-03-2010 at 09:38 PM.

  14. #29
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    I'm with Mario on apple. They are killing everything they don't like. I would never want a platform like that.
    Anyhow, I thought I'd mention that Microsoft elaborated on why they chose to only support H264 in IE9. It's not for profit. In fact, they pay about 2x as much as they gain. It's because other codecs has unclear terms and because H264 is pretty widespread available. It's possible to read more on their blog. I am fully supporting their decision, because honestly, in today's market, there is nothing as good as H264. Perhaps that will change, but it's the truth right now. I don't want subpar codecs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  15. #30
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Subsonics, have you actually read the link I gave you?
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

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