Windows-Linux Comparison

This is a discussion on Windows-Linux Comparison within the General Discussions forums, part of the Community Boards category; Originally Posted by happyclown Let's see if it can work with my PNY Nvidia Geforce FX 5200 PCI and modem, ...

  1. #46
    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happyclown View Post
    Let's see if it can work with my PNY Nvidia Geforce FX 5200 PCI and modem, out of the box.
    The Geforce will be fine, since NVIDIA now provides drivers for them, but the modem is mostly likely a no go. This is because most PC modems are (it says it right on them) actually "winmodems".

    A winmodem is a modem without hardware control. These were removed to make manufacturing slightly cheaper. It means they require software because they actually use the processor to work. That software is the "windows driver" that they require. They perform poorly compared to a real modem, but this fact is under the radar for most people.

    Some drivers for winmodems have been reverse engineered and are available for linux, but generally no one bothers with this because:

    1) most people don't use dial-up anymore
    2) a real modem has a hardware controller and does not require any kind of driver at all on any operating system. You can get a real modem for $15-20 US.
    3) winmodems are junk anyway.

    Anyway, try and enjoy Ubuntu except for the irritating and ridiculous percussion noises it makes after booting. Another hint: make sure you use the "custom" option for partitioning your drive, their installer's functionality is ass-backward.
    Last edited by MK27; 02-13-2010 at 02:12 PM.
    C programming resources:
    GNU C Function and Macro Index -- glibc reference manual
    The C Book -- nice online learner guide
    Current ISO draft standard
    CCAN -- new CPAN like open source library repository
    3 (different) GNU debugger tutorials: #1 -- #2 -- #3
    cpwiki -- our wiki on sourceforge

  2. #47
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarin View Post
    I'm surprised to hear some people say what they do about the drivers. Linux out-of-the-box has (much) better driver support than Windows does. But, manufacturers almost never support Linux, where they always do Windows
    I agree Linux has more hardware support out-of-the-box. But this is exactly because of the reason you say. The two operating systems end up having different hardware support models. Whereas Windows relies on manufacturers to ship the drivers with their products, Linux relies on distro developers to include any available drivers. Neither Windows or Linux become less or more than the other because of this. Just two different models of hardware support.

    On the issue of hardware features support, unfortunately Windows come ahead however, exactly because for most of the hardware it is the manufacturers who release the drivers and provide full support, while Linux takes a little more time to provide full-feature support on new hardware. Sometimes days, sometimes months, sometimes years, sometimes never, and if relying on manufacturer drivers, often delegates those drivers to repositories with with no support.

    Incidentally, Windows equivalent to Linux distros' repositories is Windows Update where there is a lot more hardware support, which can be considered out-of-the-box, if one considers distro's repositories as out-of-the-box.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  3. #48
    Registered User jeffcobb's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Mario F.;923412\
    Incidentally, Windows equivalent to Linux distros' repositories is Windows Update where there is a lot more hardware support, which can be considered out-of-the-box, if one considers distro's repositories as out-of-the-box.[/QUOTE]

    Sorry Mario I could not let this bit of misinformation lie. There is no Windows equivalent in Linux repositories b/c Linux repos will upgrade/update every single app on your system, from the work processor to whatever drivers to the web server. Windows doesn't do that. Now who is talking w/o knowing what they are talking about, eh? If all Linux repos had were basic OS tools and drivers you might have a point but the repos (at least for Debian-based systems) have everything from games to office tools to research tools to development tools.

    As for Happyclown or whatever I would be amazed if the video driver had full 3d acceleration with just a stock Windows CD. The modem might work b/c of many modems being Winmodems and most of the driver is in the hardware but the graphics card? No way w/o a download/installation. To be fair *technically* Linux is like that too except that finding the right driver and downloading it is automatic.

    I have said it before and I will say it again: I would not recommend Linux for everyone. It takes a certain kind of person to get the most out of it. For our house-hold, it is the right answer, gives us everything we need and is reliable as anything. YMMV.
    C/C++ Environment: GNU CC/Emacs
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  4. #49
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffcobb View Post
    Sorry Mario I could not let this bit of misinformation lie. There is no Windows equivalent in Linux repositories b/c Linux repos will upgrade/update every single app on your system, from the work processor to whatever drivers to the web server. Windows doesn't do that. Now who is talking w/o knowing what they are talking about, eh?
    Again, you are. But that is not suprising anymore.
    I didn't mention anything about applications. Was talking about hardware support, exclusively. Care to read again the quote you inserted in your own post?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffcobb View Post
    To be fair *technically* Linux is like that too except that finding the right driver and downloading it is automatic.
    As is for Windows through Windows Update for a large number of hardware, go figure. Including NVidia drivers.

    edit: More and more I'm convinced all that talk of yours about "10 years doing hardcore development for windows" is fishy. Either that or you forget things to quickly. There's no way someone with such a vast experience of windows cannot know these things. My 11 year old daughter knows them.
    Last edited by Mario F.; 02-13-2010 at 03:04 PM.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  5. #50
    Registered User NeonBlack's Avatar
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    Mario, maybe those 10 years were from 1985 to 1995.
    I copied it from the last program in which I passed a parameter, which would have been pre-1989 I guess. - esbo

  6. #51
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    BTW, what you can argue however is that distro repositories offer better hardware support on many cases. Windows Update hardware support often offers generic drivers which lack features, and on those cases where the drivers are manufacturer-made they are often older stable releases.

    But I did agree Linux offered more support. What is undeniable however is that this doesn't matter however. Again, they are different models, and thus not very comparable. That 11 year old daughter of mine (the eldest of two) also knows she has to insert a the driver CD that ships with the hardware. She did just recently when she got her laptop from the government sponsored computer program.

    Mario, maybe those 10 years were from 1985 to 1995.
    It's a possibility. But then he shouldn't just barge in and command his knowledge of Windows. Because, well, he would have none.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  7. #52
    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
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    Now, now -- no need for nastiness you two

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    Care to read again the quote you inserted in your own post?
    It's a little ambiguous. On the other hand, I think most people who understand the nature of both systems sufficiently would recognize it is impossible for MS to institute the kind of package auto-updating that exists on linux, because MS does not package software that was not developed in house by MS. So you could only have been referring to their native hardware drivers.

    I actually prefer to disable to auto-updating, but the whole online yum/apt style online repository system (which developed I believe mostly in the past 5-6 years) is totally freaking one of the awesomest ideas in computing history, fer sure. I work remotely on three different linux servers daily (one of them is just my own lil pet) and being able to issue one or two simple commands to install the appropriate distro package of some 3rd party software (eg, most recently, mediawiki), such that it is already preconfigured to work perfect with all the other 3rd party software (apache, mySQL, PHP) is just the tish.

    I think there are some things for windows, like XAMPP, to do this with open source software on a narrow scale.
    C programming resources:
    GNU C Function and Macro Index -- glibc reference manual
    The C Book -- nice online learner guide
    Current ISO draft standard
    CCAN -- new CPAN like open source library repository
    3 (different) GNU debugger tutorials: #1 -- #2 -- #3
    cpwiki -- our wiki on sourceforge

  8. #53
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK27 View Post
    It's a little ambiguous. On the other hand, I think most people who understand the nature of both systems sufficiently would recognize it is impossible for MS to institute the kind of package auto-updating that exists on linux, because MS does not package software that was not developed in house by MS.
    It can and it does. This is a snapshot of Windows Update Catalog taken just now. Page 1 of 40 after a search for Nvidia.

    I don't know what else more I can say.
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    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  9. #54
    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    It can and it does.
    Well, that's good then.
    C programming resources:
    GNU C Function and Macro Index -- glibc reference manual
    The C Book -- nice online learner guide
    Current ISO draft standard
    CCAN -- new CPAN like open source library repository
    3 (different) GNU debugger tutorials: #1 -- #2 -- #3
    cpwiki -- our wiki on sourceforge

  10. #55
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    I believe Ubuntu/Debian has had the closed source nvidia driver in the repository since at least 6.10 (October 2006), maybe much earlier. It's just not installed by default because of licensing issues. It has never been a technical issue ("apt-get install nvidia-glx" or something will install it automagically for you).

    The repository system is the thing I miss the most on Windows. I'm surprised no one has implemented it for Windows yet. Well, some have tried, but all on a much smaller scale (the ubuntu repository currently has 28845 packages). Maybe because Windows programs are typically distributed as installers, which, though used commonly as an argument for Windows user-friendliness, I think is the worst major installation "system" out of all 3 major OSes - Linux's apt/yum > Mac's drag and drop (only because it doesn't handle dependencies) > Windows's installers (double click then click click click click reboot to install a word processor?!)
    Last edited by cyberfish; 02-13-2010 at 04:02 PM.

  11. #56
    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyberfish View Post
    I'm surprised no one has implemented it for Windows yet.
    I would think the major issue is that much 3rd party software for Windows is proprietary, and MS cannot package or distribute it.

    Like, Photoshop will never perpetually auto-update. You buy a version, you may be entitled to some patches and such, but at best you just get the next version at a discount -- you do not get it freely installed for you.
    C programming resources:
    GNU C Function and Macro Index -- glibc reference manual
    The C Book -- nice online learner guide
    Current ISO draft standard
    CCAN -- new CPAN like open source library repository
    3 (different) GNU debugger tutorials: #1 -- #2 -- #3
    cpwiki -- our wiki on sourceforge

  12. #57
    Registered User jeffcobb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    It's a possibility. But then he shouldn't just barge in and command his knowledge of Windows. Because, well, he would have none.
    I guess this shows what an investment in learning about Windows development is worth; in 10 years, its worth nothing according to you. Note that the same investment in learning POSIX systems would still be valuable to you today.

    Sorry if I seemed to "barge" in here with ideas and experience that does not reflect your own. That doesn't change the reality on the ground.

    As for the repos, I would rather have the option to keep ALL of my software up to date, not just the drivers. And as for your daughter and her ability to insert a disc, I am sure you are a proud parent. I too know how to install drivers from CD or off the web. The point I made that you side-stepped is that this process is dealt with in the repos whereas it is a manual process with Windows.

    At the end of the day however I can see that you are not accepting of anything that disagrees with your world view and Mario: you are welcome to it. I will never change your mind or anyone elses; that was not the point of the thread. It was IIRC to outline the differences between the two. You are happy in your little world; continue to be so. To badger and attempt to belittle those who think differently than you do simply reflects your lack of character...

    I am done with this. If it were an actual debate/comparison of points of value that would be one thing and worth pursuing. This however is not and I am left this sort of behavior on the playground 40 years ago.
    C/C++ Environment: GNU CC/Emacs
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  13. #58
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyberfish View Post
    The repository system is the thing I miss the most on Windows. I'm surprised no one has implemented it for Windows yet.
    Specific to hardware problems, I think one of the reasons may be that there's little incentive due the fact drivers are distributed with the hardware. For both software and hardware in general, another reason is distribution rights, that in the world of non open source software creates legal difficulties to the idea of a central repository.

    Quote Originally Posted by cyberfish View Post
    I think is the worst major installation "system" out of all 3 major OSes - Linux's apt/yum > Mac's drag and drop (only because it doesn't handle dependencies)
    Dependencies aren't generally a problem with windows software. It's one advantage of Windows.

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffcobb View Post
    At the end of the day however I can see that you are not accepting of anything that disagrees with your world view and Mario
    Your attempt at tiptoeing out of it doesn't go unnoticed. My opinions aren't relevant. It shouldn't worry you or anyone else what I think.

    Instead on the issues of facts is were we diverge. And you presented arguments that are not true. You revealed a profound lack of knowledge of Windows and even presumed you could qualify someone as dumb or smart based on the operating system they use, when in fact both operating systems are used by all kind of people, from children to scientists, from grannies to nobel prizes, from people with disabilities to legend computer programmers, from swimming pool cleaners to engineers.

    Let me tell you about smart:

    1. Exhibiting social ability or cleverness.
    2. Exhibiting intellectual knowledge, such as that found in books.


    A smart person will think twice before criticizing any of these two clearly successful operating system as you did. A smart person will also not lie about their knowledge in order to try to gain an argument through an appeal to authority. Because they can get caught. And caught you were.

    Have a nice day.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  14. #59
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ!
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    Why do we have to criticize members? Why can we not have a discussion without evil remarks and unfriendliness?
    Instead of biting back, how about just ignoring it?
    Not to mention flaming is against the rules.

    This would be a much more interesting thread if some people would not be so un-nice towards each other...
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

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    I agree. This is like getting personal over bananas vs oranges.

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