Windows-Linux Comparison

This is a discussion on Windows-Linux Comparison within the General Discussions forums, part of the Community Boards category; Originally Posted by MK27 I totally understand this attitude in my friends who are not programmers, who I never try ...

  1. #31
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    22,597
    Quote Originally Posted by MK27 View Post
    I totally understand this attitude in my friends who are not programmers, who I never try to pitch linux at. They use windows and it works fine for them, why would they want to change?

    Coming from a programmer tho, to me it just sounds totally head-in-the-sand ignorant. Like, most people who drive cars are not interested in tuning the car, most of them aren't even interested in changing the oil or air filter, and that's fine (I guess) but if represent yourself as someone who works on cars and is involved in their development, you need to take an interest in their use above and beyond just getting the thing into gear, turning the wheel appropriately and deploying the parking brake. That may even include taking an interest in more than one kind of vehicle.

    Of course, this may overly idealistic if your "career path" consists of following the instructions you are given by your superiors so you can collect a paycheck. Something tells me Mr. Bill Gates did not have this attitude tho (even if he does employ lots of such people), or he'd just be an accountant somewhere today instead of what he is.
    Don't get me wrong. I like a lot of things that are in Linux. The ability to have control over everything, for example, is cool and nice. I also have a burning desire for knowing how everything is put together.
    However, going back to your analogy, while I might not currently know how to change an oil filter, if I were a mechanic, I could certainly find out how to do it. The only problem is that I would hate doing it. Usually. The more time I have to spend figuring out how to get something working, the more annoyed I become. It's my nature.
    I also realize that this might not be a good programmer attitude, and fortunately for me, I know I can get away with it because I am not, nor do I intend to become, a professional programmer out in the industry. It's a hobby, and it will probably not become something more than that. At least not when working for others, and for the time being at the very least.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  2. #32
    In my head happyclown's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    In my head
    Posts
    391
    It really sounds like elitism when linux users think they're smarter than Windows users.

    Personally, I think Windows users are smarter for staying the hell away from linux:

    I can get work done immediately, my peripherals work immediately VS I need to read the man pages to try to get things to work, I need to hack endless config files to try to get something to work(ie. mouse scroll wheel), I need to ask in forums/write to mailing lists/read bug lists.

    It comes down to this: Do you want to do things the easy way, or do you want to do things the hard way.

    Oh, and to answer the question about what peripheral driver problems I've experienced with linux: printer, modem, onboard video driver problems.
    OS: Linux Mint 13(Maya) LTS 64 bit.

  3. #33
    Registered User jeffcobb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Henderson, NV
    Posts
    875
    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    Sorry, but I find that hard to believe. It's just not possible for someone who "did hardcore windows development for close to 10 years" (sic) to then turn around and try to convince anyone else Windows does not foster knowledge or whatever else you are trying to imply.



    Ok. You are full of bull and strike me as yet another idiot who after 2 months on these boards tries to pass an expert on all matters including those you clearly show a lack of understanding. In short, you really sound like a poser.




    There's no misconception here. You are arguing over that. But I never said you were wrong or right. I don't even care. Instead I was talking about your dumb concept about what makes someone smart and someone dumb.

    I am not going to get into a urination for distance contest with you Mario; you are convinced of your POV and am I mine. Yes, I did the 10+ years I spoke of and still do the odd Windows app when a client needs it. I did everything from device drivers to distributed client/server business applications, from medical analysis software to debugging tools. I could care less if someone like you believes me or not. I am not saying Windows doesn't foster the gain for knowledge, it just doesn't do it to the extent that open source software does. As much as I loved coding for OS/2 2.0 and beyond and as much as I considered that superior to Windows, being closed source kept the knowledge locked up to the same extent that Windows does.

    Maybe I did not explain things as well as I could have, no doubt about it. I am a good coder but a lousy debater. I will say this: I came to programming because of an insatiable curiosity about how the computer works. I like open source because all of the source is available and if I wanted to learn how a scheduler or database or web-server or anything works, the source is out there. For me this is like being a kid in a candy store. More, by embracing the GPL we are all working together to make something better rather than the silo approach embraced by the proprietary business model because new ideas and fixes are returned to the source pool and we all benefit.

    You called me a poser....but if I never came back to this forum I would be happy because my world does not revolve around or depend upon what you think of me. If you go to my website and see my CV if you need to see my background (unless you think I am making that up too. Mario, I simply have a different POV than you do. Trying to discredit my points by attacking me just gives me a lens with which to view your real motives. You don't know me as well as you think and because of this you are displaying willful ignorance on your part.

    Now not all of us get into this business for the same reason. Some get into it for a paycheck, some for other reasons but I did because of an insatiable appetite to explore and learn about the computer. Consequently Linux allows me to do that more than Windows does. To me, a computer programmers that doesn't want to learn about how his computer works is hard to understand. That said, the latter type of programmer is who Windows is written for. But that is not me.
    C/C++ Environment: GNU CC/Emacs
    Make system: CMake
    Debuggers: Valgrind/GDB

  4. #34
    In my head happyclown's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    In my head
    Posts
    391
    Of course, this is just another OS war, so it's completely pointless.

    There's no right or wrong. Use whatever works for you.
    OS: Linux Mint 13(Maya) LTS 64 bit.

  5. #35
    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    segmentation fault
    Posts
    8,300
    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    However, going back to your analogy, while I might not currently know how to change an oil filter, if I were a mechanic, I could certainly find out how to do it. The only problem is that I would hate doing it. Usually.
    Well I imagine changing the oil filter may or may not be anyone's favourite job. But I still think it is a good idea to know what's going on under the hood before it breaks down and becomes necessary. Altho to be fair I often "learn in crisis". Once you've take an engine apart and put it back together once for any reason, it's that much easier the 2nd time.

    So the hassles with linux IMO may make it a hassle for some people, but if you are going to work with it as a programmer, sys admin, etc, I think that model forces you to stay more in touch with stuff from the ground up. True GNU types might say that it encourages you to participate in the communal development of the OS.

    The more time I have to spend figuring out how to get something working, the more annoyed I become. It's my nature.
    Hey, so don't take this question the wrong way (I am not being facetious, I'm genuinely curious): why in hell do you like programming then? I think "the majority of the general public" would consider it a form of masochism. (I don't, but I'm the kind of person that honestly enjoys fixing cars more than driving them. Put another way, it was those "linux hassles" that actually got me interested in programming).
    Last edited by MK27; 02-12-2010 at 03:09 PM.
    C programming resources:
    GNU C Function and Macro Index -- glibc reference manual
    The C Book -- nice online learner guide
    Current ISO draft standard
    CCAN -- new CPAN like open source library repository
    3 (different) GNU debugger tutorials: #1 -- #2 -- #3
    cpwiki -- our wiki on sourceforge

  6. #36
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Portugal
    Posts
    7,460
    Quote Originally Posted by happyclown View Post
    It really sounds like elitism when linux users think they're smarter than Windows users.

    Personally, I think Windows users are smarter for staying the hell away from linux:
    No, no, no, and hell no!

    Look, it's just not possible to keep a credible debate when people feel that the way to defend an operating system is attacking the other. Linux doesn't make things harder on anyone, either. In fact, distros like Ubuntu are being used by grannys.

    Linux is just a kernel. Nothing more. What you put on top of it is what will define how hard or easy it will be to use. And for that matter you have plenty to choose from. From get-your-hands-dirty to even-my-dog-can-use-this.

    And this is actually the advantage of Linux over Windows for some and a disadvantage to others. Not that Windows does not or cannot present to the user the same challenges (it can be equally challenging if you want to get into knowing your operating system, just like Linux), but that Linux does this by offering different distributions, whereas Windows only has one distribution (arguably).

    I started using Linux a little over an year ago. Even though I have been in and out of it since 1993 or 94, I didn't really know Linux that well. But when I finally took it over for real, it didn't take me more than a month to get comfortable around it, and 6 months to stop asking questions on public boards and know how to deal with most problems myself. This is more or less the same amount of time it takes someone to learn Windows (I know because it's the length of time of many Windows courses that focus on getting you from starting to advanced concepts). In 12 months I moved from Ubuntu to Arch Linux and am today a confident Linux user.

    And because I use both operating systems with equal pleasure is perhaps the reason why I get so annoyed at the zealots on either side that simply cannot see one operating system without it being a function of the other.

    Note: In fact, for completely different reasons to this thread I actually defend that both operating systems are a piece of crap. Actually those reasons do make Linux less crappy than Windows. But that would be another thread. And seeing how quickly any Windows-Linux debate always becomes ridiculously filled with bigotry, I really don't feel I will ever want to have that debate with you lot.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  7. #37
    and the hat of sweating
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Toronto, ON
    Posts
    3,545
    Quote Originally Posted by MK27 View Post
    I totally understand this attitude in my friends who are not programmers, who I never try to pitch linux at. They use windows and it works fine for them, why would they want to change?

    Coming from a programmer tho, to me it just sounds totally head-in-the-sand ignorant. Like, most people who drive cars are not interested in tuning the car, most of them aren't even interested in changing the oil or air filter, and that's fine (I guess) but if represent yourself as someone who works on cars and is involved in their development, you need to take an interest in their use above and beyond just getting the thing into gear, turning the wheel appropriately and deploying the parking brake. That may even include taking an interest in more than one kind of vehicle.
    I think you're under the false impression that Programmers and IT people are the same thing.
    I could care less about the deep dark crevices of Linux or Windows; or how to edit endless config files or registry settings to get other people's software to work, or optimize the system to squeeze out a few more clock ticks or MB... If I liked that stuff, I'd work in the IT department. I'm a Developer; so I like writing software -- end of story.
    Sure, I need to know a little about the system to compile code and stuff like that, but the more time I spend learning the OS, the less time I have to do what I want to do which is write software.

    To use your car analogy, there are Users who just drive cars and don't care about how it works; Mechanics who fix cars and need to know how they work; and various Car Developers who should know a lot about the part of the car they're designing, but don't need to know everything about a car (some designers work only on the body, some on the interior, some on the electrical system...)

    There are also different types of programmers. There are application developers who just write user programs like games & spreadsheets; there are client-server developers who write back-end software for IT people, and there are system developers who write device drivers and other low level things that interact closely with the OS and therefore they need to know a lot more about how the OS works.
    "I am probably the laziest programmer on the planet, a fact with which anyone who has ever seen my code will agree." - esbo, 11/15/2008

    "the internet is a scary place to be thats why i dont use it much." - billet, 03/17/2010

  8. #38
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    22,597
    Quote Originally Posted by MK27 View Post
    Hey, so don't take this question the wrong way (I am not being facetious, I'm genuinely curious): why in hell do you like programming then? I think "the majority of the general public" would consider it a form of masochism. (I don't, but I'm the kind of person that honestly enjoys fixing cars more than driving them. Put another way, it was those "linux hassles" that actually got me interested in programming).
    I don't know why it appeals to me.
    But usually there are some things where problem do intrigue me. Programming and hardware is one of them. Computer troubles isn't one of them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  9. #39
    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    segmentation fault
    Posts
    8,300
    Quote Originally Posted by cpjust View Post
    Sure, I need to know a little about the system to compile code and stuff like that, but the more time I spend learning the OS, the less time I have to do what I want to do which is write software.

    To use your car analogy, there are Users who just drive cars and don't care about how it works; Mechanics who fix cars and need to know how they work; and various Car Developers who should know a lot about the part of the car they're designing, but don't need to know everything about a car (some designers work only on the body, some on the interior, some on the electrical system...)
    That makes sense. The only thing I've gotten paid for to date is web-dev, and my professional aspirations are actually more toward jack of all trades/sys admin type stuff. The idea of working in a big team on a million line, 5 year project is not appealing to me this point. So that's where I was coming from.

    I'll probably always like coding my own stuff, and the OSS linux model/community is very conducive to that. The more I understand the OS, the better.
    C programming resources:
    GNU C Function and Macro Index -- glibc reference manual
    The C Book -- nice online learner guide
    Current ISO draft standard
    CCAN -- new CPAN like open source library repository
    3 (different) GNU debugger tutorials: #1 -- #2 -- #3
    cpwiki -- our wiki on sourceforge

  10. #40
    Woof, woof! zacs7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    3,459
    Quote Originally Posted by jeffcobb View Post
    Using Windows doesn't cost money; Buying it does. So does having to pay for most of the apps you use. Even those make come with a few minor-point upgrade or two but after that the Vendor will be there with his/her hand out again. And don't get me started on registration codes/numbers/copy protection...that stuff I don't miss at all.
    Are you trolling or what? There are free Windows ports for most software. And going off your previous quote:


    Quote Originally Posted by jeffcobb
    For those who complain that they had some device X and Linux didn't support it, I am reminded of the Henny Youngman joke about "doctor doctor it hurts when I do this!!" Doctor: Then don't do that. IOW if I have a choice between two printers, Windows (or more to the point manufacturer) only supports one and the other is supported by both, I go where I have support.
    Then you shouldn't be buying the software that costs, instead going with the free alternative. Going with the one that is free. "Oh but it does less", Yes -- that's the same story with a given printer that works on Windows and not Linux.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia
    Rant at me if you want, but I don't like browsing through help files to find what I want.
    Well there's your problem. Why are you browsing the help files, instead of searching through them? :\

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffcobb
    I just wanted to point out a misconception you apparently had. Another that you had (and what you quoted from my message) is that I am arguing that Windows is $$ and Linux is $0.00. Linux exacts a charge like Windows does. The difference is that where Windows hits your pocket book and enforces it through registration/license codes, Linux takes payment through education if you are a user and the GPL if you are a programmer
    As I said earlier. You can get Windows legally for free. And there are Linux distros that cost money. So there goes that "argument".

    And the whole "closed-source is evil" idea is wrong. Say your company spends millions on developing a game, with in-house algorithms and methods of doing things. As if you can blame them for not releasing the source, are you serious?

    Quote Originally Posted by mario
    ... to Arch Linux and am today a confident Linux user.
    Yay, we're not alone

  11. #41
    Registered User jeffcobb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Henderson, NV
    Posts
    875
    Quote Originally Posted by zacs7 View Post
    Are you trolling or what? There are free Windows ports for most software. And going off your previous quote:
    Trolling? For what? I honestly have no clue what you are going on about.. I made the statement I did to show that Linux (FOSS in general) does come with a cost, it is just different than what most people argue about.

    Most of the anti-linux comments I have seen here have not been valid for 5 or more years but don't let that ruin a good rant. I am a programmer which means working with my computer at a high and low level. Linux lets be do that. There are very few people I would recommend Linux to....as a programmer Linux provides me with so many tools out of the box that it makes it a wonderful environment for me.

    So relax, I am not attacking Windows or any other sacred cow...
    C/C++ Environment: GNU CC/Emacs
    Make system: CMake
    Debuggers: Valgrind/GDB

  12. #42
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    3,183
    Windows - if you want something that just works, with little flexibility, customizability, and tweakability, and don't mind general annoyances - weird design decisions that most people agree should be changed yet developers aren't fixing them, and don't mind being treated like idiots (strong words, but that's Windows' definition of user-friendliness), and criminal suspects (strictly M$ products so far).

    Linux - if you don't mind the developers assuming you know what you are doing (requires more effort on your part), and don't mind some tweaking to get things to work because it's not mainstream, and also less specialized software support. In return, you get a lot better flexibility, a lot more choices in everything, and design choices that "make sense" (since it's mostly developed by users for users, and they listen to users a lot more), highly efficient mechanisms (that may require some learning) like package managers (you can install GIMP or OpenOffice or Firefox just by typing one command, and, like other people have pointed out, update your whole system, including all programs, in one command), and tweakability.

    Come to think of it, a lot of it is open source vs closed source/commercial, but let's face it, Linux environments are predominantly open source and Windows environments are predominantly closed source. Whether that counts is up to you (or do you just want to be comparing the OSes strictly?)

  13. #43
    Unregistered User Yarin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    1,624
    My intention wasn't to ignite an OS war. I do see Windows as having a place. But when I think about it... if Linux and Windows user-shares were to be swapped with the snap of my fingers, Windows would probably die, would it not?

    I'm surprised to hear some people say what they do about the drivers. Linux out-of-the-box has (much) better driver support than Windows does. But, manufacturers almost never support Linux, where they always do Windows. Which means that if your Windows doesn't come with the right drivers, you just go get them, where if Linux or a repo. doesn't have it, your probably out of luck. So overall I think Windows is the way to go if your looking for max. hardware support.

    About the getting Windows (and accompanying software) free, legally, well... That may work for you, but for most people that isn't feasible, if it were then that would defeat the idea of selling it. And yet the average person can easily get a wide variety of distros. for free. So I think Linux definitely has one-up on Windows there!
    A class that doesn't overload all operators just isn't finished yet. -- SmugCeePlusPlusWeenie
    A year spent in artificial intelligence is enough to make one believe in God. -- Alan J. Perlis

  14. #44
    In my head happyclown's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    In my head
    Posts
    391
    I'm just about to start downloading Ubuntu.

    Let's see if it can work with my PNY Nvidia Geforce FX 5200 PCI and modem, out of the box.

    Fingers crossed.
    OS: Linux Mint 13(Maya) LTS 64 bit.

  15. #45
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    3,183
    Most modems will work unless it's a winmodem (a cheap modem that does everything in software in the driver), even then there's a fair chance it will work.

    NVIDIA cards have always worked out of box since... 10 years ago (using the open source NV driver without 3D acceleration)? If you want 3D acceleration, NVIDIA has provided quality closed-source driver since I don't know when. But distributions typically don't include that because of licensing restrictions, so you'll have to install it yourself, just like in Windows. I think the latest Ubuntu will download and install it for you if it detects a nvidia card, though (at least mine did).

Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Popular pages Recent additions subscribe to a feed

Similar Threads

  1. windows .dll vs. linux .so - global static objects
    By pheres in forum C++ Programming
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 11-23-2010, 12:29 PM
  2. Thinking of upgrading to linux...
    By Yarin in forum General Discussions
    Replies: 37
    Last Post: 07-24-2009, 11:40 AM
  3. Build linux on windows
    By baash05 in forum Linux Programming
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 02-19-2008, 09:12 PM
  4. Why can't Windows run Linux binary executables?
    By Kleid-0 in forum Tech Board
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 12-04-2005, 10:44 PM
  5. Linux and Windows Duel Boot
    By The15th in forum A Brief History of Cprogramming.com
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 04-26-2002, 04:59 AM

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21