Afehganistan strategy

This is a discussion on Afehganistan strategy within the General Discussions forums, part of the Community Boards category; You clearly don't know that the Final Solution was in fact a desperate measure during the last stages of the ...

  1. #31
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    You clearly don't know that the Final Solution was in fact a desperate measure during the last stages of the war.
    You also clearly don't know that racial prejudice was in fact mostly internal propaganda and party-related ideology. That the actual war had nothing to do with it but instead was the product of an historical context in order to reclaim land lost to WWI and expand the territory and influence of the Nazi Germany. Germany would in fact recruit from many of the countries it occupied. Not exterminate them.
    You also don't seem to know that the occupied countries, with exception to those holding pre-WWI German territory were meant to become after the war satellite states within the notion of a decentralized German Empire.

    But more importantly, you fail to reveal any knowledge on USA's Neutrality Acts and Cashy & Carry policies. The first even deserved the following comment by Roosevelt "American neutrality laws may actually give passive aid to an aggressor while denying help to victimized nations." And the second being one of the major contributors for Japan attack and Germany & Italy joint declaration of war a few days later.

    It would be only in 1941, exactly 2 years and one month after the war started that the Neutrality Acts were finally put to an end. But ironically even then USA non-intervention policy was meant to proceed while the world tumbled all over it and its allies kept losing the war (and USA ships kept being sunk by german U-Boats!). Japan however had different plans that revealed themselves one month later... and then USA was indeed forced into the war. But meanwhile the Neutrality acts favored the development of Germany, the beginning of the war and the success of the German-Italy early campaigns while emptying the allies coffers and instigating Japan.

    So, from the bottom of my heart I thank your grandparents and their fathers and mothers who sacrificed their lives and the lives of their loved ones for a just war. But don't think that will hide your country faults neither it will wipe out from history the millions of others from many other countries, who them too sacrificed themselves. Neither for one moment think that your patriotic propaganda will make it look like this war would have never reached your shores (it did in a terrible way), or that somehow you acted out of pure goodwill and uninterested desire to help your allies that were being slaughtered in Europe. You didn't. You were sheepishly dragged to this war. After 2 years of incessant cries of help from Churchill.
    Last edited by Mario F.; 10-29-2009 at 03:17 PM.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by abachler View Post
    They surrendered before the last man fell in a war against an enemy whose policy was to exterminate inferior races. In no way does this garner my respect. Had they continued to fight it could have significantly shortened the war and reduced total losses on all sides. Instead they chose the path of dishonor and slavery, and now they expect to not have to live with that stigma.
    You _must_ be trolling by now?
    How I need a drink, alcoholic in nature, after the heavy lectures involving quantum mechanics.

  3. #33
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    You were sheepishly dragged to this war. After 2 years of incessant cries of help from Churchill.
    Pre-WW2 America was isolationist. Only when we were directly attacked did we find it necessary to become involved. To a large extent, Americans as a whole are isolationist to this day.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

  4. #34
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    In any case Afghanistan is a global concern and it's no time for Europe to turn to the other side pretending it isn't happening or to let USA deal with it as if it was only their problem. It definitely is not. Apparently Madrid and London wasn't enough. And I do wonder how many Europeans forgot all about it.

    It worries me that the issue is not even being discussed in Europe outside the closed offices of ministers of defense. It ashames me profoundly. As much as it angers me.

    But on the other hand, I'm doubting Obama abilities as commander-in-chief. His last speech (was it yesterday or the day before?) "I will not send you in harm's way" reveals the antithesis of what a war speech should be. This is the speech of someone who knows the war is lost, who doesn't want the war to proceed, or who simply doesn't have a clue as to what ticks the military into action and wakes up the Eagle inside.

    Exactly what is going on in the Pentagon that they can't come up with a sound strategy for Afghanistan, I don't know. What is it that stops the Obama administration from demanding Europe commitment, I don't know either. Maybe it is true. Maybe this country cannot be tamed. The one country that defeated the two superpowers. But one thing I seem to think I know about the military. Obama's speech had them throw up.
    Last edited by Mario F.; 10-29-2009 at 06:53 PM. Reason: ugly typo. harm's, not arms
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  5. #35
    Reverse Engineer maxorator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abachler View Post
    They surrendered before the last man fell in a war against an enemy whose policy was to exterminate inferior races. In no way does this garner my respect. Had they continued to fight it could have significantly shortened the war and reduced total losses on all sides. Instead they chose the path of dishonor and slavery, and now they expect to not have to live with that stigma.
    Ignorance is not bliss.
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  6. #36
    Woof, woof! zacs7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nvoigt View Post
    Poland alone lost half the number of military personal the US lost, being only about 1/5th in population. Setting it in relation would lead to the opinion that Poland fought 2.5 times as hard as the US. Yugoslavia even lost more men absolute than the US while being only 1/10th the population. They fought 10 times harder than the US. I'm not saying the US failed at anything, I'm just saying that Ex-Warsaw Pact Members might not see you as the glorious saviour you picture yourself, especially not, if you tell them they should have fought "harder", when in fact they were invaded and brutalized (in case of the Baltic states "at least"!) twice, thereby wearing the brunt of the war.
    Are you talking about the Polish soldiers fighting for/with Germany, or the Polish solders fighting against Germany?

    Anyway the only way to solve all problems is move to your closest Antarctic territory. I just love that the US learnt nothing from Vietnam.
    Last edited by zacs7; 10-29-2009 at 08:05 PM.

  7. #37
    Super Moderator VirtualAce's Avatar
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    D-Day would have never happened hadn't the French Resistance provided the allies with all the field work during the preceding months.
    This pales with the fact that the waters ran red with the blood of thousands of Americans who died that day to liberate countries most of them had never even visited and countrymen they would never meet. I'll be damned if I will sit here and let you dishonor their memory and their sacrifice by somehow claiming Europe could have saved itself or after the fact trying to minimize
    the impact of that day on the whole of the war in Europe. If I remember correctly most of your countries were trying to appease Hitler by giving him this or that while he was Blitzkrieging right outside their doorsteps. If Europe could have saved herself then why did she beg the US to step in for sooooo long? If Europe can fight her own battles then how come she never does? I have nothing against modern-day Europe or any of you in this forum but I will not agree with idealogies that try minimize the US's role in WW2 in Europe. Without the US's involvement Europe would have never been liberated....never....period. It's not b/c we are superior or in any way better than another country or that we aren't scared of the hell that is war...it's just because we stepped up and got the job done. War sucks and one death is too many but death is not a reason to turn tail and run before the job is complete. I'm not minimizing the death of any of your countrymen and they are just as brave as any man or woman who gives the ultimate sacrifice for their country. However facts are facts and the fact is had D-Day not happened the war in Europe would never have been won.

    So, from the bottom of my heart I thank your grandparents and their fathers and mothers who sacrificed their lives and the lives of their loved ones for a just war. But don't think that will hide your country faults neither it will wipe out from history the millions of others from many other countries, who them too sacrificed themselves. Neither for one moment think that your patriotic propaganda will make it look like this war would have never reached your shores (it did in a terrible way), or that somehow you acted out of pure goodwill and uninterested desire to help your allies that were being slaughtered in Europe. You didn't. You were sheepishly dragged to this war. After 2 years of incessant cries of help from Churchill.
    We sent airmen to Britain to help fight off the Luftwaffe long before the war was official in the US. The point is if you keep tabs on the madmen and don't attempt to just appease them or negotiate through failed political policies (as we still attempt to do through the hideous United Nations) and allow them to get away with murder....you won't have to beg for help for 2 years b/c you will be busy kicking his arse all the way back to his own country. Pre-emptive action stops this type of tyranny but strangely even today when the US takes a stand against these madmen we often stand alone (although UK and Australia are usually there by our side) and then are criticized for not using diplomacy. There is a time for diplomocay but if it fails or goes nowhere you cannot be nieve enough to believe it will ever work. After diplomacy fails the only option is open hostilities. If it were up to Europe we would still be negotiating with Saddam Hussein while he secretly did whatever the hell he wanted. We would still be spending billions of dollars to deal with his many incursions into other borders - most of the incursions never made the world news and people only remember the Gulf War as the one incursion. Truth is there were many many more after that. Regardless of how we waged the war in Iraq or the validity of the reasons that were given at the time, Saddam needed to be dealt with and deal with him we did. I wished we had not masked the reason for Iraq as we did but that's politicians for ya.

    To me the only thing Europe owes is just some respect for the men who died to liberate their lands regardless of who they were. Europe doesn't owe the US anything today but we all owe some manner of respect for the generation that fought in WW2. We don't know anything about the horrors of world-wide war and I pray we never will have to learn.

  8. #38
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    If you feel I somehow tried to "dishonor their memory and their sacrifice by somehow claiming Europe could have saved itself", read again my posts. They aren't going anywhere.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  9. #39
    the hat of redundancy hat nvoigt's Avatar
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    Are you talking about the Polish soldiers fighting for/with Germany, or the Polish solders fighting against Germany?
    There wasn't a significant number of polish soldiers fighting for the Axis.

    They surrendered before the last man fell
    Poland fought from the first day of the war to the last day of the war in Europe, they never surrendered, mustered the fourth largest fighting force, sometimes even facing impossible odds, only to be betrayed in the field at the warsaw uprising and again at the table at Yalta. I have the utmost respect for the people who came to a foreign territory to liberate people they had never met before, but my guess is that they would hang their heads in shame if they heard you talking.
    hth
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  10. #40
    Super Moderator VirtualAce's Avatar
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    My post was not directed at a certain post but a general attitude. It is a sensitive subject with me since my entire family is or was involved somehow with the military.

  11. #41
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
    My post was not directed at a certain post but a general attitude. It is a sensitive subject with me since my entire family is or was involved somehow with the military.
    As is mine. We can trace an unbroken military history back to the Crossing of the Rubicon.

  12. #42
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    And I understand that. And trust me when I say I have the utmost respect for all the men and women involved in the war.

    But "all" means all. Not some. Forgetting or pretending to ignore the effort put by the brave soldiers of Soviet Union, Poland, Netherlands, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Greece, France, or the Netherlands is as offensive to any European as it is to any American the dismissal of their country importance. To that add the legions of German, Italian, Romanian, Bulgarian and Hungary dissidents and the efforts of the occupied countries resistance groups.

    No one pales in comparison to no one in a war that was so close to be lost, where everyone lost someone, and which victory was only possible due to the effort of everyone involved. And I too will not sit by letting my continent be trashed around like if nothing of that mattered. USA body count is securely not higher than that of countries like the Soviet Union, Poland, France, Greece where not only more lives were lost but on most cases, the war wiped out 10 to 15% of their population (not 0.5% as was the case with USA).

    And once the war was over everyone went back to their business leaving behind a group of eastern allies in the hand of the Soviet Union for decades to come. All dully signed at the conference table in Yalta by their own allies. The body count only grew larger.

    Maybe if the WWII is taught in primary and high schools in USA once and for all without all the passion of a country constantly in search for their own heroes at the cost of the sacrifice of others, maybe you Americans will learn a little bit more instead of revealing a revolting ignorance and despise for anything great that is not your own doing.

    Lower that cocky chin because it has always, and always will, only serve your own domestic agenda. It has no value whatsoever in the rest of the world where history is not told in the first person. (pales in comparison my ass!)

    EDIT: Want to really learn about WWII? Get yourselves the full collection of World At War and also the 6 Volume The Second World War. Bet no one told you in school Winston Churchill was not only also an historian but also a Nobel Prize of Literature. And there you will see how much Europe respects and understands the decisive moment in history that was the American declaration of War on Japan. And how much we respect and honor your participation. That is what is being taught at our schools every single day. What about you?
    Last edited by Mario F.; 10-31-2009 at 10:07 AM.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  13. #43
    Super Moderator VirtualAce's Avatar
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    Maybe if the WWII is taught in primary and high schools in USA once and for all without all the passion of a country constantly in search for their own heroes at the cost of the sacrifice of others, maybe you Americans will learn a little bit more instead of revealing a revolting ignorance and despise for anything great that is not your own doing.
    I have no control over what is taught and nor do you and yet you assume you know what is taught over here. What they are teaching now is a watered down censored version that is probably no more close to historical than the accounts in your post. Don't assume that all of us here are historically ignorant or only believe what is spoon fed to us. My core study area in my first college was history. I did not do it on purpose but it so happens I took so many history courses I ended up with a history as a core area of study.

    EDIT: Want to really learn about WWII? Get yourselves the full collection of World At War and also the 6 Volume The Second World War. Bet no one told you in school Winston Churchill was not only also an historian but also a Nobel Prize of Literature. And there you will see how much Europe respects and understands the decisive moment in history that was the American declaration of War on Japan. And how much we respect and honor your participation. That is what is being taught at our schools every single day. What about you?
    I have most if not all of what you are talking about as well as several books related to subs, air war, and key battles in the Pacific. I'm not as well versed on the European side of the WW2 since the Pacific is what interested me most. You act as if you have a monopoly on WW2 information. I really don't understand the point here or what we are arguing. Are we arguing that your WW2 collection is greater than mine or is this some other type of contest?
    You act as if I haven't read that information or that it will somehow shock me and I'll magically see your point.

    But since this post is not a contest to see who's WW2 knowledge or collection is better I say we get back to the idea of Afghanistan. If your country wants to help, then help, because even if you do, or don't, we are still going to go over there and do what needs to be done - with or without you. We always do, always have, and always will. Personally I don't care if you like that fact or agree with it or like or dislike my attitude. Bantering over this doesn't change what is really happening and what countries are or are not going to help us. Thinking about helping or wishing you could help doesn't mean squat in my book. I guess it comes down to putting your money, or your life, where your big mouth is. So put up or shut up as my family would say. My approach is probably not the most diplomatic but then again since I've been around and involved with the military I doubt that is what I've been taught. Diplomacy is for the morons on the Hill. They start the war with their mouths and the men end it with their lives.
    Last edited by VirtualAce; 10-31-2009 at 11:49 AM.

  14. #44
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    What they are teaching now is a watered down censored version that is probably no more close to historical than the accounts in your post.
    Sheesh. Really, whatever...

    But since this post is not a contest to see who's WW2 knowledge or collection is better I say we get back to the idea of Afghanistan.
    You bet.

    If your country wants to help, then help, because even if you do, or don't, we are still going to go over there and do what needs to be done - with or without you. We always do, always have, and always will. Personally I don't care if you like that fact or agree with it or like or dislike my attitude. Bantering over this doesn't change what is really happening and what countries are or are not going to help us. Thinking about helping or wishing you could help doesn't mean squat in my book. I guess it comes down to putting your money, or your life, where your big mouth is. So put up or shut up as my family would say.
    Your idea that what I say or do will change my country stance in the Afghan war honors me. But it is also nothing but a joke.

    I revealed my feelings about mine and other European countries. And these I do also to those around me who care to listen. And I also place my vote when the time comes. If there is one thing democracy taught me is that I don't have to shut up, and my family told me is to NEVER shut up. Since I know we most probably had a similar upbringing on matters of Freedom, I suggest your rethink.

    I was also mostly curious as to how Americans in general saw our meager involvement on this war. If my criticism of my own continent and of your president somehow displeases you, know it was noted.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  15. #45
    Super Moderator VirtualAce's Avatar
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    If there is one thing democracy taught me is that I don't have to shut up, and my family told me is to NEVER shut up.
    We are talking about military matters here. First thing they teach you in the military is we DEFEND a democracy but the military is not a democracy. I was not telling you to shut up in reference to your opinions but I was stating that some of what you are saying in relation to WW2 are big words for a man who was never there. So put up or shut up means before you begin to criticize another's actions in wars you never fought in put your own arse on the line and then you might have the right to criticize.

    I was always taught to respect and honor those in the military. Part of that respect and honor is not offering my opinion b/c I wasn't there, I didn't see my buddies guts get blown to smithereens, I have never been in a situation where people were trying to kill me at every turn, I have never done any of that. Now can I question the policies behind all of the reason for the war? I sure can and I do many times. But the line stops at the men. You never ever claim this or that about the men involved b/c even though you have the democratic right to say whatever you want....you don't out of pure respect. I can't explain it any better than that. Abachler seems to be of the same mindset (which scares me that we actually agree in this post) probably b/c he understands the military culture as well. It's hard to explain if you haven't been around it. But the basics are don't criticize the actions of men who put their lives on the line if you yourself have never done the same.

    We can banter about the policies of WW2 b/c I could care less about politicians who never fired one round in the war or any other conflict. But let's keep it on the Hill and leave the actions of the men out of it. They were only doing what they were ordered to do so don't tell me what my grandfather or his friends or any other person involved were thinking or doing or why they were doing it b/c you simply do not know.

    And for an extremely well educated person you are making some grandiose generalizations about Americans. From your posts you appear to think we are all spoon fed morons who believe everything we are told about this or that. Truth is most of us here despise the media, despise the modern historical books (since they are pure BS now), despise the government in one form or another, and in general are all working day to day to make ends meet and get to the weekend to spend time with our families and friends. You make us sound like woefully ignorant pompous bastards that go around trying to bully everyone else. Sorry, my friend but that is not true. What you see of America is what CNN, FOX, Hollywood and the other idiots bring to your door. The true America is much different than all that. So before you start measuring all of us by the same ruler you might want to consider actually listening a bit.

    And now I'm done b/c Abachler and I are actually agreeing in a post which is scary. That in itself is enough to make me want to run away from this thread with my hands up screaming all the way.
    Last edited by VirtualAce; 10-31-2009 at 12:21 PM.

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