Mario F.

And don't forget the downright evil.

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Originally Posted by brewbuck:
Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

abachler

or this one

jinhao

Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989:
Do you really know that? The photo shows an unknown man halting the tanks! but the first tank did not hit the man! you can search the video on YouTube.
Many students were killed? Yes! But before the students(thugs) were killed, did you know how many soldier were killed by students? I don't think they are students! They are thugs!
If the students were killing soldiers on the ground in front of whitehouse, what are US goverment going to do?
Why these students kill the soldiers? Who encourage them? I heared about that is American Democracy!

Great Chinese Famine:
Yes, It is a policy error.

One-child_policy:
1300 million population is not a small number. I think you misunderstand the policy, there are 55 minorities and one Han in China. The One-child policy is just for the Han nationality!!

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A C++ Project

abachler

Ah yes, they were breakign the law, that said t is illegal to protest, so they deserve to be run over by tanks. What a sterling example of a civilized culture, thank you for makign that clear.

Oh well in that case its ok. As long as millions of people die due to a policy there is no crime.

So it was a racist policy as well as its other shining features of enlightened government.

So let me get this straight. Students protesting is a crime punishable by the death sentence. The government starving millions of people to death though is merely a policy error. Yes, thank you for elucidating that for me, I was obviously completely misinformed when I stated that China is a backwards primitive nation.

Sebastiani

As do many Americans, apparently:

Waco Massacre of 1993 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Great Depression - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lots-of-Africans Policy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

jinhao

Do not confuse the Great China Famine with The Holocaust.

For the wrong mistake, the goverment of China was not able to save these people, the grain lacked!

If you think a policy error is as holocaust, what about Katrina?

We are all the same. what difference is just language and nationality.

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A C++ Project

abachler

Post disaster analysis indicates that there was not a shortage of grain. in fact thousands of people starved to death literally at the doorsteps of the granaries because the bureaucrat's refused to unlock the doors due to more concern for fulfilling their grain delivery schedules.

Yes refusing to feed people is obviously the same as being shot at while trying to do so.

whiteflags

That's a pretty ........ing low blow even if Abachler is wrong.

So basically an entire city was evacuated in 3 or 4 days, depending who's counting, and the only people who stayed were the sick elderly and the poor. Those who stayed in their homes chose to stay there. To call that anything but a success would be expecting far too much of us or any country.

The restoration of the Gulf Coast was much more of a challenge and probably worthy of more criticism than anything you brought up, but I wouldn't try to claim that the government's policy killed anyone.

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Os iusti meditabitur sapientiam
Et lingua eius loquetur indicium

"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." (Shakespeare, Hamlet, Act II scene ii)

http://www.myspace.com/whiteflags99

happyclown

The Original Chinese Boys

Nearly 11 million views. Funny $h*t!

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maxorator

Abachler: The government of China does cruel things, ergo everything is their fault, including overpopulation and drought? If you want to give examples of how bad exactly the government is, then don't mix good examples (Tiananmen Square) with stupid ones (one-child policy, drought). Other good examples include the kidnapping of the descendant of Dalai Lama, terrorizing Taiwan and other violently suppressed peaceful demonstrations.

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The duck is irrelevant to my point.

cyberfish

I am from Taiwan, part of China or not would depend on who you ask. We do have democracy (judging by all the angry yelling at the political figures on TV), and I don't agree with many things done by the Chinese government (of China). That said, I don't think you are being too fair here.

If you classify what they have done as crime, have you thought about their motivations? Or are they just after the blood?

In their words, it's for "social stability and integrity of the nation". Which makes sense. If you have a largely overpopulated country with many (mostly un-educated) hungry people, there is a big chance for riots, which will make lives worse for many more people. A "democratic" government with free speech would allow people to start riots much more easily.

We can afford democracy in developed countries because people have a higher standard of living, and will less likely take risks.

It's our belief that freedom comes before all else (which comes with its prices). For them, they value stability and average well-being of the people more. You are merely saying your belief is right and theirs is wrong. Specific examples are stupid in this case, especially carefully selected ones like these. For a country with a few thousand years of history, of course there are some ugly parts of history. America has a much shorter history, and would you say we won't be able to find ugly things in their history?

We always get emotional when we hear people dying. But their counter-argument is that more people would die in the end if they allowed total freedom and riots everywhere.

You are only talking about the mean, not the end.

Bubba

You people are truly amazing. Your thought processes are well..umm...scary to say the least.

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If you aim at everything you will hit something but you won't know what it is.

Mario F.

I don't think similar overpopulation issues have stopped India from establishing a democracy. So I don't buy the population numbers argument.

Instead, I'm more easily convinced by the country's history. Particularly the last 100 hundred years which have been intensive in social and political unrest. That and a rather weak and incompetent leadership in the Kuomintang during the most decisive moment in the country's recent history.

In any case, the country political ideology and the form of their government is none of my concern. However, there's an whole other side to China that influences or affects the rest of the world:

There's an handful of grave violations of human-rights, an history of support of terrorist or otherwise dangerous states and regimes, gross violations of international law and UN resolutions, and even evidence of criminal state activity. Of course what this means is that China is no different than the USA, or UK, or France, or Israel. But China champions them in quantity. Something that forces me to strongly dislike China government and wish nothing else than seeing all of it standing trial for charges against humanity. To me they are all a bunch of criminals.

EDIT: One last though (Bubba's comment reminded me of it)... The thought that a dictatorship provides "social stability and integrity of a nation" is the argument of the dictator and those who support him. Where exactly do you stand cyberfish?

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Originally Posted by brewbuck:
Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

cyberfish

I don't know enough about political ideologies to have an opinion worthy of defending. I was just trying to bring their argument into the discussion, since it has largely turned into a one-sided debate.

Everyone bashed them for killing people, yet seemingly no one tried to inquire into their motivation.

Subjectively, though, I don't like what they are doing.

mike_g

Ok, I just read the one child policy link, and it says that it is estimated to have prevented 250,000,000 births. To put that in context its like adding 4/5 of the population of America to a country of a similar size that already has a population of well over a billion. I have never been to China, but I have been to India. Much as I had a good time there, one thing that struck me was the amount of people. It really is crushing, especially when a nation is underdeveloped. An American, commenting about population issues, who does not have a clue about the pollution and poverty it can cause, is just plain ignorant.

Once a population reaches an intolerable limit wars break out and people get killed. Killing people is just plain cruel, and wars bring instability, so its much more sensible to avoid the situation. IMHO, stupid people need brute force natural selection to guide thier race (there are still a few countries that rely on this). Clever people can manipulate it through birth control and generic engineering. Ok, we are not quite designing our own babies yet, but we can screen for defects, and the technology is progressing fast. Being able to guide the search to deal with a limited problem space will save a whole lot of misery. In its current state humans in developed nations don't even evolve. Every unhealthy fat ugly disease prone lazy looser gets to pump out babies at a rate of choice assuming they can find a breeding partner or two.

In the long run, I think Chinese people are onto a winner. Being an underdog they generally work harder and have lower expectations than western people do. America is in a perpetually increasing state of debt to the country. They are less constrained by religion, hold sole supplies to several key resources, and they have the source code of Windows, so are probably owning every second 13yo American's PC for all the porn and warez they D/L.

The one thing I do hate though is capital punishment. It really brings out the savages. But America has this too. Anyone for televised executions? When a country needs to kill people to entertain the masses, it really says something about the average in their population. I guess only a fraction of nations have risen above this level of short-sighted brutality by now.

Anyway, I'm still amazed at how some Chinese guy's thread got derailed into a political attack. I don't vote, and I probably never will. If anyone tried to judge me on my nations actions I'd tell them to f* off, as it has nothing to do with me. When I was traveling in Australia, Americans always got bashed, because of Bush and the war in Iraq. I always thought that was prejudice and unfair rip into individuals about something they have no control over, and this thread is effectively doing the same thing.

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