Book prices

This is a discussion on Book prices within the General Discussions forums, part of the Community Boards category; Originally Posted by Mario F. That's definitely something that didn't bother me or anyone else. For a socialist, you worry ...

  1. #76
    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    That's definitely something that didn't bother me or anyone else. For a socialist, you worry too much about the rich.
    Well, I don't really think it is a bad thing. I just do not think it is anything close to an example of "socialist policy", and quite obviously it is a move by the telecom industry to recoup the taxes it has (failed to) pay in Portugal, since the thing was largely funded by the government selling debts owed to them by the industry. You yourself have expressed previous concern over the "American style" abuse of the term, socialism, in previous posts, evidently you have decided to jump on the bandwagon now?

    BTW, I never claimed to be a socialist, but I sympathize with the general idea. Also, I believe it is with good reason they worry about "rich people" and their behaviour.
    Last edited by MK27; 09-26-2009 at 11:04 AM.
    C programming resources:
    GNU C Function and Macro Index -- glibc reference manual
    The C Book -- nice online learner guide
    Current ISO draft standard
    CCAN -- new CPAN like open source library repository
    3 (different) GNU debugger tutorials: #1 -- #2 -- #3
    cpwiki -- our wiki on sourceforge

  2. #77
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK27 View Post
    Well, I don't really think it is a bad thing. I just do not think it is anything close to an example of "socialist policy", and quite obviously it is a move by the telecom industry to recoup the taxes it has (failed to) pay in Portugal, since the thing was largely funded by the government selling debts owed to them by the industry. You yourself have expressed previous concern over the "American style" abuse of the term, socialism, in previous posts, evidently you have decided to jump on the bandwagon now?
    Oh, gosh. The things you read! No. That wasn't the reason. All taxes debts remain.

    As for you not thinking it is a Socialist policy. Well, it was made by a Socialist government (the Portuguese Socialist Party. I think the name says it, no?) following a socialist policy.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  3. #78
    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    Oh, gosh. The things you read! No. That wasn't the reason. All taxes debts remain.

    As for you not thinking it is a Socialist policy. Well, it was made by a Socialist government (the Portuguese Socialist Party. I think the name says it, no?) following a socialist policy.
    I didn't say the debts were eliminated, I said they were sold, meaning they still have not been paid, they were probably sold at a loss (eg, 90% of their value) and the telecom industry will now get more money from the government and the public than they will have to pay. Ie, your tax dollars are subsidizing private industry. Hardly "socialist" IMO.

    A transfer of public funds to the private sector cannot be a "socialist policy", I don't care what they choose to call themselves. Also, by that logic, all policies of any government everywhere can just be named after the party, absolving them of any potential confusion ("We do not have socialist policies, we are the Democratic party) which is extremely flimsy logic.

    Again, I do not think it is such a bad thing despite the explicit and obvious corruption and complicity to such involved. Just I would object to some perverse description of events molded as ammunition in some abstract, idiosyncratic argument about "Socialists funding software piracy" or whatever, when clearly it is "Capitalists funding capitalism" (not necessary bad, but very prone to abuse when the government must be a partner).
    Last edited by MK27; 09-26-2009 at 11:33 AM.
    C programming resources:
    GNU C Function and Macro Index -- glibc reference manual
    The C Book -- nice online learner guide
    Current ISO draft standard
    CCAN -- new CPAN like open source library repository
    3 (different) GNU debugger tutorials: #1 -- #2 -- #3
    cpwiki -- our wiki on sourceforge

  4. #79
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    As for you not thinking it is a Socialist policy. Well, it was made by a Socialist government (the Portuguese Socialist Party. I think the name says it, no?) following a socialist policy.
    "You can't believe anything he says, he doesn't even believe in God." - typical argumentum ad hominem

    So why is it you don't want kids ot have computers? Are you afraid that the social constructs of post-feudal society have perhaps not had the effect of placing the most deserving in positions of power and the empowerment of the masses and subsequent effective competition will prove what the socialists have been saying all along?

    On a level playing field, the best man wins, on an uneven playing field, your starting position makes all the difference.
    Last edited by abachler; 09-26-2009 at 11:59 AM.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

  5. #80
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Actual studies are still waiting. I do doubt however they will be made. Social experiments in this country have little scientific background. Instead they are, as was the case, simply the result of a political motivation.

    But to answer your question directly, I have a few things against kids having a computer. For one, there has been reports of kids of the poorest social strata selling their computers (20% of the Portuguese population in within poverty levels). On the other hand this policy was not a part of a wider educational effort that actually could have given some context to the computers:

    - Teachers didn't receive new skills to follow students with their new technology; Homeworks are still classical pen-&-paper assignments, educational policies and programs weren't changed to take advantage of the computers. Many teachers don't know how, don't care and weren't told to care how to take advantage of their students computers for their teaching process.

    - There's been no investment whatsoever in the creation of online educational content that could encourage students to use their computers as a learning tool.

    - There's been no social awareness campaigns that could help many parents deal with what became an intruder in their homes; a piece of equipment that had their children locked on their bedrooms, setting up private passwords and negating parents any control over their kids online social interactions. To put this in perspective, the typical Portuguese parents work both 9 hours per day, stay away from home around 12 hours, has little education and very nearly inexistent computer knowledge or skills.

    These computers have became Messenger, Twitter and Hi5 tools, have been used to download movies and music from the internet and have very little use as true educational tools. This information is being made public by parents associations a little over the country. The actual numbers are still to be known. Chances are they will never be. The whole computer craze was not even done with an historical perspective. Next year, maybe the other one it will stop.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  6. #81
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    Actual studies are still waiting. I do doubt however they will be made. Social experiments in this country have little scientific background. Instead they are, as was the case, simply the result of a political motivation.
    Maybe Portugal should stop thinking itself special, and take advantage of the psychology and sociology research that many other countries have made that show that addressing the effects of poverty increase scholastic achievement. If you need a resource for such information I am positive that Mensa em Portugal can assist you. If they don't then let me know and I'll make a few calls.

    But to answer your question directly, I have a few things against kids having a computer. For one, there has been reports of kids of the poorest social strata selling their computers (20% of the Portuguese population in within poverty levels). On the other hand this policy was not a part of a wider educational effort that actually could have given some context to the computers:

    - Teachers didn't receive new skills to follow students with their new technology; Homeworks are still classical pen-&-paper assignments, educational policies and programs weren't changed to take advantage of the computers. Many teachers don't know how, don't care and weren't told to care how to take advantage of their students computers for their teaching process.

    - There's been no investment whatsoever in the creation of online educational content that could encourage students to use their computers as a learning tool.
    Yeah because like Wikipédia, a enciclopédia livre is worthless.

    - There's been no social awareness campaigns that could help many parents deal with what became an intruder in their homes; a piece of equipment that had their children locked on their bedrooms, setting up private passwords and negating parents any control over their kids online social interactions. To put this in perspective, the typical Portuguese parents work both 9 hours per day, stay away from home around 12 hours, has little education and very nearly inexistent computer knowledge or skills.
    My parents handled it just fine.

    These computers have became Messenger, Twitter and Hi5 tools, have been used to download movies and music from the internet and have very little use as true educational tools.
    Yes, because learning to proficiently use the tools like email, voip, instant messaging, etc. that professionals use in the workplace is obviously of no educational value.
    If you teach a dog to speak, and all it talks about are bones and butt sniffing, does that make it any less of an achievement? The same arguments where made about teaching the poor to read. Yes, the vast majority of the poor use their ability to read for things like National Enquirer, The Globe, and 'books' (i.e. pr0n aka romance novels). But a few, a very important few, use that ability to read books about subjects that are far beyond their ability to acquire through education due to their financial station of birth.

    This information is being made public by parents associations a little over the country. The actual numbers are still to be known. Chances are they will never be. The whole computer craze was not even done with an historical perspective. Next year, maybe the other one it will stop.
    Because if poverty isn't a quick fix it's not worth doing?
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

  7. #82
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Fantastic. Address poverty by giving computers to the population.

    I'm... speechless.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  8. #83
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    Fantastic. Address poverty by giving computers to the population.

    I'm... speechless.
    So your plan is to address poverty by removing one of the essential tools needed to compete in the global marketplace?

    If you have a better plan that is incompatible with the govt giving computers to the public then by all means present it.
    Last edited by abachler; 09-26-2009 at 01:17 PM.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

  9. #84
    Super Moderator VirtualAce's Avatar
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    I know why we cannot keep a thread on topic here. We are nerds and we all know and retain far too much information for any one human to handle.

  10. #85
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
    I know why we cannot keep a thread on topic here. We are nerds and we all know and retain far too much information for any one human to handle.
    Well, my research leads me to believe that Nerds and Humans once had a common ancestor 50-100 kya. Recent enough that the two species can theoretically still interbreed and produce viable offspring, although such cases are extremely rare outside of a few anomalous instances involving extreme physical attractiveness in the human and above average wealth and diminished mental capacity in the nerd. This behavior is regarded by many to be a form of 'beastiality'.
    Last edited by abachler; 09-26-2009 at 02:15 PM.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

  11. #86
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abachler View Post
    So your plan is to address poverty by removing one of the essential tools needed to compete in the global marketplace?

    If you have a better plan that is incompatible with the govt giving computers to the public then by all means present it.
    And because I don't have a solution for my country poverty that removes value from my argumentation? Because the computer handout obviously is failing miserably, not having decreased school dropouts or not having increased school results, I still am forced to believe in it?

    Poverty is not merely a financial problem, neither it is merely a educational problem. Poverty is not solved by giving people computers. Instead by elevating their education quality, making education more accessible and equal to everyone. There's a lot more fundamental issues that need to be addressed first, before a computer make sense in this context. What use is a computer to a kid if their parents can hardly afford to pay for their school books, plus material, plus transportation. What good is the damn computer if most of these kids leave in social and racial ghettos with their own schools where only the teachers that fared worst in their yearly examinations lecture?

    You can really believe in all that crap about computers elevating the human mind. I won't stop you. But neither it is going to stop the fact that it has about the same effect as any good book on the hands of any kid which was born with a desire to learn. And the exact same effect as a good book on the hands of any kid without any desire to learn.

    And as for computers being essential tools for today's marketplace, you and I were born in a time where computers were hardly personal, and it didn't stop us from being part of a generation which changed the landscape forever. Neither it stopped many people older than us to today use computers regularly at work and at home for about everything deemed worthy doing in a computer.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  12. #87
    Captain Crash brewbuck's Avatar
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    Book prices sky high? I know, tell me about it. I should have bought this set I've been drooling over before the prices shot up:

    Amazon.com: Handbook of Shock Waves, Three Volume Set, Volume 1-3 (9780120864300): Gabi Ben-Dor, Ozer Igra, Tov Elperin: Books
    Code:
    //try
    //{
    	if (a) do { f( b); } while(1);
    	else   do { f(!b); } while(1);
    //}

  13. #88
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    And because I don't have a solution for my country poverty that removes value from my argumentation? Because the computer handout obviously is failing miserably, not having decreased school dropouts or not having increased school results, I still am forced to believe in it?
    1 bucket of water will not put out a house fire, but that doesn't mean throwing water on the fire is the wrong idea. So you claim it is failing, that in no cases has it helped any student do better? You claim there are no statistics, and yet you claim to know 'the truth'. Without actual numbers to back up your straw man argument I am going to have to say yes, it removes value from your argument. Based on the prima facie evidence that access to resources is better than lack of access, the computer program is improving the conditions of the poor, it may just not single handedly stamp out poverty.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

  14. #89
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    I think I was clear to note that evidence seems to point to no value from this measure. Do read my posts again. Parents organizations and local news all mention the failure of this measure on a recurrent basis. Which is then furthered by the current data on school success rates and dropouts.

    But more interestingly, for someone who even has less data than I do you seem to be putting your foot where your mouth is. How about not being so assertive on what you don't know anything about?

    edit: Also dully noticed you changed your argumentative strategy...
    Last edited by Mario F.; 09-26-2009 at 05:52 PM.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  15. #90
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    I think I was clear to note that evidence seems to point to no value from this measure. Do read my posts again. Parents organizations and local news all mention the failure of this measure on a recurrent basis. Which is then furthered by the current data on school success rates and dropouts.

    But more interestingly, for someone who even has less data than I do you seem to be putting your foot where your mouth is. How about not being so assertive on what you don't know anything about?

    edit: Also dully noticed you changed your argumentative strategy...
    If you simply don't like the program then that's one thing, but you are claiming it has no effect, which is highly dubious.

    But I'll concede that perhaps Portuguese children are simply too dull to take advantage of modern technology effectively, which seems to be your argument, and since you are Portuguese, you would know better than an American. After all, our constitution has it written right in that all men are created equal, but i guess that excludes the Portuguese.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

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