Book prices

This is a discussion on Book prices within the General Discussions forums, part of the Community Boards category; Originally Posted by Mario F. But the discussion made an interesting turn... I've heard of them before of course (hard ...

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    But the discussion made an interesting turn...


    I've heard of them before of course (hard to miss it if you get political on the web). But I suggest you don't get your pants on fire. Some points to consider:

    - A grassroots movement that turns active in politics has very little to offer in terms of real proposals. Their primary concerns do not address dairy farmers, fishermen, factory workers, the judiciary system, health, unemployment, economics, social gaps, immigration, poverty. Wasting a vote on these type of political parties is a clear note one doesn't give a damn. So don't complain when things get rough on what really matters in your life: Your job, your family, and how much you can buy with your money.
    The party in itself does not care for these matters, and they don't have to. The Pirate Party of Denmark for example, clearly state that the left-right scale means nothing to them, and that their only goal is to support one of the major parties during an election, if they in turn get their concerns addressed regarding copyright and net-neutrality.

    I don't think they even considered running for government themselves, or in a 2-party system like the US. Their role is as a support-party, offering their votes and mandates, to whomever will address their political goals in return. In other words, they don't care for these matters, there are other parties to deal with those.

    - The fact these people actually defend the elimination of patents and think that the only consequence is the government getting less money, goes to show their ignorance
    Well, one of their political principles includes government funded R&D to encourage further innovation after abolishing the patent system.


    (that and the fact they actually think their cause warrants the formation of a political party, of course).
    They wish to change a part of society, and so they form a party. The only thing that governs whether or not this is warranted, is how much support they can gather. And since they have grown to be the third largest party (by number of votes) in Sweden, i would say the exsistence of the party itself is _very_ warranted. There is obviously a political interest in Sweden for their goals, so they establish a party and start to grow, this is called democracy, not ignorance Mario.

    Scientific development to the level we have been experiencing has only been possible exactly because of the patenting system which serves also to protect the huge investments made during investigation. The patenting system has helped secure investors, pay the salaries of sometimes hundreds of people involved, pay for materials and equipments, and has provided an important boost to the economy by guaranteeing viable scenarios for companies formation, exploitation and competition.
    Call me a socialist or whatever, but my take on this is to nationalize these affairs. Make the state pay, it works. Look at NASA, a prime example of a nationalized organisation making huge leaps forward in the name of science. Patents on the other hand support the private monopolies that will make progress come to a halt.

    Similarly their views of copyright are a joke. A bunch of white middle class PirateBay junkies with very little worries in life besides the size of their hard drives, thinking that anything that gets in the way of their daily fix should be fought for their right to be free to do as they like. Since daddy and mummy provide at home, including buying their new i7 and paying for their Gigabit access, they have no feel for what really drives the engine that powers all they ever had and will have. Teens, immature young adults enjoying the benefits of a steady economy and anarchists all coming together. A bunch of useless pieces of crap wasting air and space.
    And what is the alternative then? As long as the internet exists, as long as we can exchange 1's and 0's over long distances, piracy will flourish. Either we update the copyright laws so they can coexist with modern technology, or we could try to choke the internet with a totalitarian system of censorship and control? It is an ultimatum really, and there is only one viable choice. So think of the Pirate Party supporters however you want, i think they are right.

    - Where was I? Ah, yes... It's however no surprise these type of "citizen movements" end up gaining some popularity (even if only temporary and even if not translated into actual votes). Politics in Europe is becoming increasingly detached from the population. People just don't care anymore about those they can't speak with, reason with, or even understand most of the time. So anything goes. From political parties being formed because someone legalized abortion, to this nonsense we are debating here.
    I don't see how a political party that covers the interests of a large part of the population could ever be a problem? Isn't that what democracy is all about, the voice of the people and so forth?
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  2. #32
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neo1 View Post
    Well, one of their political principles includes government funded R&D to encourage further innovation after abolishing the patent system.
    Sure. And you naturally expect to pay for such funding through a tax increase. And since Sweden has a population in the 9 million mark, being that tax payers should make... 60%?... of that, you are willing to support with a considerable tax raise, the development of new technologies being done in such companies as Ericsson or Volvo, who then still need to market it and sell it back to you at a profit.


    They wish to change a part of society, and so they form a party. The only thing that governs whether or not this is warranted, is how much support they can gather. And since they have grown to be the third largest party (by number of votes) in Sweden, i would say the exsistence of the party itself is _very_ warranted. There is obviously a political interest in Sweden for their goals, so they establish a party and start to grow, this is called democracy, not ignorance Mario.
    Oh, make no mistake. It is democracy, I agree. But it is also ignorant democracy. Or is it that if one is democratic, they can't be ignorant anymore? But it's ok. I'm perhaps being a little too harsh. Especially because it's not a good option to debate by diminishing the adversary... oh, but we are talking about politics. Scratch that.

    The sudden increase in ermm "political interest" you speak of, coincided exactly with the guilty verdict on the PirateBay court case. One of the most widespread illegal content distribution services in the web. Coincidence? Of course not. The third political force in Sweden is all to well suited with hackers, crackers and anyone interested in software, music and movie piracy.

    It's democracy alright. It's the other side of democracy.

    Call me a socialist or whatever, but my take on this is to nationalize these affairs. Make the state pay, it works.
    I'm a Socialist too. But for the state to pay anything, it needs the money. And that money comes from you. You pay! Not the state. Unless... nationalizations. If you nationalize half of the country industry, hey there will be money to pay for that and a lot more! But then you opened room for corruption, lost your European economical dominance and your way of life. Should be interesting to see a Ericsson or Volvo nationalized. That would make a lot of the competition much happier.

    Look at NASA, a prime example of a nationalized organisation making huge leaps forward in the name of science. Patents on the other hand support the private monopolies that will make progress come to a halt.
    NASA is only possible due to the huge economical power that supports it. The equivalent in Europe the ESA and it needs a collection of ~18 European countries (and american funding too!) to provide it with a 3 billion euros budget. Nasa is maintained by one government on a 17 billio dollar budget.

    You simply cannot use this as an example, unless you propose that Sweden or any European country can even come close to these numbers and then indeed justify such a thing anywhere close to NASA.

    But more important. Every country in Europe supports investigation thought state funded programs. You aren't asking for anything that doesn't exist already. What you do seem to be against is private ownership. And that my friend is something you and I know very well over here in Europe who always defended it.

    So, are you a Socialist indeed, or are you Marxist? Maoist perhaps?


    And what is the alternative then? As long as the internet exists, as long as we can exchange 1's and 0's over long distances, piracy will flourish. Either we update the copyright laws so they can coexist with modern technology, or we could try to choke the internet with a totalitarian system of censorship and control? It is an ultimatum really, and there is only one viable choice. So think of the Pirate Party supporters however you want, i think they are right.
    Very well. I can't say much more than what you already did in this paragraph. You clearly delineated the idea that if you can't beat them you should join them. Or, if you can't beat crime (which no country in the world was ever able to) we might as well all become criminals. And to appease our minds and makes us think we are walking the legal road after all, we should change laws so that Criminal behavior becomes acceptable.

    Curious:

    What do you think of Theft? You agree we should pass laws to make it legal?
    Wat do you think of Commercial Espionage? You think we should pass laws to make it legal?
    What you think of Child Abuse? You think we shall pass laws to make it legal?
    ad nausea...
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F.
    What you think of Child Abuse? You think we shall pass laws to make it legal?
    Yes!
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  4. #34
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Oh my. Priceless! Thanks for that. I surely needed a laugh today. Been having quite an impossible day.

    Suddenly I got an urge to revisit Black Adder.
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    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    Sure. And you naturally expect to pay for such funding through a tax increase. And since Sweden has a population in the 9 million mark, being that tax payers should make... 60%?... of that, you are willing to support with a considerable tax raise, the development of new technologies being done in such companies as Ericsson or Volvo, who then still need to market it and sell it back to you at a profit.
    I'm not quite sure i understand what you are trying to say, could you rephrase that?

    Oh, make no mistake. It is democracy, I agree. But it is also ignorant democracy. Or is it that if one is democratic, they can't be ignorant anymore? But it's ok. I'm perhaps being a little too harsh. Especially because it's not a good option to debate by diminishing the adversary... oh, but we are talking about politics. Scratch that.
    Democracy in itself is flawed, since ignorance is prevalent in the majority of the population (imo atleast). But surely, if anyone is willing to place a vote on a certain political party, then it's existance is warranted, no? Ignorant or not.

    The sudden increase in ermm "political interest" you speak of, coincided exactly with the guilty verdict on the PirateBay court case. One of the most widespread illegal content distribution services in the web. Coincidence? Of course not. The third political force in Sweden is all to well suited with hackers, crackers and anyone interested in software, music and movie piracy.
    Yes, political interest coincides with added publicity, this is not new, and it is not a coincidence. And of course you can expect the people that vote for the Swedish Pirate Party to be pirates themselves, just as you can expect the communist parties to have mostly communist voters for example. Again, i don't catch your drift?

    I'm a Socialist too. But for the state to pay anything, it needs the money. And that money comes from you. You pay! Not the state.
    Obviously, USA is afaik one of the only nations to print new money when they need it, around here we pay expenses with taxes.

    Unless... nationalizations. If you nationalize half of the country industry, hey there will be money to pay for that and a lot more! But then you opened room for corruption, lost your European economical dominance and your way of life. Should be interesting to see a Ericsson or Volvo nationalized. That would make a lot of the competition much happier.
    I don't recall mentioning anything about nationalizing half of any country's industry. I was just arguing that if removing patents and altering the copyright laws would result in fewer innovations being made, the state (or us if you will), could fill in that role, with public research institutions.

    NASA is only possible due to the huge economical power that supports it. The equivalent in Europe the ESA and it needs a collection of ~18 European countries (and american funding too!) to provide it with a 3 billion euros budget. Nasa is maintained by one government on a 17 billio dollar budget.

    You simply cannot use this as an example, unless you propose that Sweden or any European country can even come close to these numbers and then indeed justify such a thing anywhere close to NASA.
    Merely an example, other examples that work well here in Scandinavia: Public Healthcare, Public Postal Service, Public Schools and really, anything public, funded by the state around here works very well.

    We even have publicly funded research right now, why not focus more on that to fill out the possible holes that removing patents might leave in the private sector?

    But more important. Every country in Europe supports investigation thought state funded programs. You aren't asking for anything that doesn't exist already.
    Right.

    What you do seem to be against is private ownership. And that my friend is something you and I know very well over here in Europe who always defended it.
    More like private monopolies and the concept of intellectual property.

    So, are you a Socialist indeed, or are you Marxist? Maoist perhaps?
    I'm not sure, my political compass is in the far 3rd quadrant. But i'm not sure which dictator i resemble the most

    Very well. I can't say much more than what you already did in this paragraph. You clearly delineated the idea that if you can't beat them you should join them. Or, if you can't beat crime (which no country in the world was ever able to) we might as well all become criminals.
    If you can't beat a specific crime, then what point is there with the law that makes it criminal?

    And to appease our minds and makes us think we are walking the legal road after all, we should change laws so that Criminal behavior becomes acceptable.
    I wish not to change the current copyright laws so that i can feel good with pirating. If i feel bad about something, it is probably because i did something immoral, since laws do not define what is immoral and what isn't, how i feel about piracy has little to do with it's legality.

    Laws define what the majority of us think should be legal and illegal, if the majority of the population agree that the law is meaningless and that we can do better, then the law should be changed, do you not agree?

    If the law is changed, then the criminal behavior ceases to be criminal, and is then just...behavior. It seems as if you have ethical problems with piracy, even if laws were changed to allow it to some degree, why is that?

    Curious:

    What do you think of Theft? You agree we should pass laws to make it legal?
    Wat do you think of Commercial Espionage? You think we should pass laws to make it legal?
    What you think of Child Abuse? You think we shall pass laws to make it legal?
    ad nausea...
    None of these laws are meaningless, none of them are impossible to enforce, they all make perfect sense.

    Piracy is not theft, only if you buy into the whole intellectual property enchilada, or arguably, it is theft of income (Which some would then argue against since most pirates rarely intend to buy what they download.)
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neo1 View Post
    I'm not quite sure i understand what you are trying to say, could you rephrase that?
    I'm saying two things:

    - Tax payers in countries with low population rates need to pay more for the state to make the same amount of money. A state investment of say, 3 million Krona is more heavy on the Swedish tax payer, than it would be if Sweden had a 200 million inhabitants.

    - I'm also saying that the end product of such investments would still need to be commercialized through private companies which still needed to protect their investments and as such protect themselves legally through any kind of anti-piracy policies available to them, including prosecuting anyone freely distributing their products.

    Obviously, USA is afaik one of the only nations to print new money when they need it, around here we pay expenses with taxes.
    Good thing for you then, you didn't accept the Euro monetary system. You wouldn't be able to do that lightly. Bad thing for you though, that by printing Krona you will in fact contributing to the its devaluation, which will reduce one of your countries main strengths, your exports. And will also increase inflation.

    We even have publicly funded research right now, why not focus more on that to fill out the possible holes that removing patents might leave in the private sector?
    Because, as I tried to tell you before, patents and copyright mechanisms have been a strong catalyst of human development in the past decades. Especially because they promote competition and foster commerce which generates health and further promotes new investments.

    Certainly the state is a key partner on a lot of research possibilities. Such is the case on the so-called developed countries. But removing patents and fundamentally altering copyright laws is another issue altogether. It is negating private initiative, increasing state dependency and slowing down the rate of human development simply because the incredibly huge amounts of money needed around the world to investigate could never be satisfied by any central government.

    Piracy is not theft, only if you buy into the whole intellectual property enchilada, or arguably, it is theft of income (Which some would then argue against since most pirates rarely intend to buy what they download.)
    Right. I can see we really have nothing in common. I don't think its useful for any of us if we continue this debate.
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    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    Good thing for you then, you didn't accept the Euro monetary system. You wouldn't be able to do that lightly. Bad thing for you though, that by printing Krona you will in fact contributing to the its devaluation, which will reduce one of your countries main strengths, your exports. And will also increase inflation.
    I gotta take issue with that statement. A weak local currency (lets say Rai) increases exports because its cheaper for foreigners to convert e.g. Krugerrands into Rai and buy Yap goods.

    For example lets say that Yap has 1000 Rai, and Pre-Appartheid South Africa has 1000 Krugerrands, ostensibly of equal initial value for this discussion.
    Yap makes T-shirts and sells them for 1 Rai
    PASA grows cotton and sells it for 1 Krugerrand per ton.
    It takes one ton of cotton to make 1 t-shirt.
    1 T-shirt clothes 1 worker long enough to grow 1 ton of cotton.

    Yap converts 1000 Rai to 1000 Kruggerands and buys 1000 Cotton.
    PASA converts 1000 Kruggerands to 1000 Rai and buys 1000 T-shirts.

    so no money has effectively changed hands, only goods of equal value.

    Yap decides to carve 1000 more Rai than it had before, effectively creating new money.

    Scenario 1 - Yap spends the money on goods immediately before the deflated value becomes apparent to PASA
    Yap then converts 1000 Rai to 1000 Krugerrands(K) and buys another 1000 cotton.

    PASA goes to buy T-shirts but find that 1000 Rai will only convert to 500 Krugerrands worht of goods, or 500 T-shirts because the Rai is deflated.

    PASA can only grow 500 cotton because it only has 500 t-shirts, doubling the cost of cotton due to supply and demand.

    Yap tries to buy 1000 cotton but find that it can only buy 500 (no more available), thus spending only 1000 Rai.

    Because there is an excess of 1000 Rai currency in the market, and fewer goods to be had, the cost of cotton increases, further reducing how much PASA can buy, further reducing production, and eventually stalling the economy entirely in a downward spiral of dumbness.


    Scenario 2 - Yap creates 1000 Rai but the market immediately adjusts to the new money
    Yap then converts 2000 Rai to 1000 Krugerrands(K) and buys another 1000 cotton.

    PASA goes to buy T-shirts and finds that its 2000 Rai it just recieved buys 1000 t-shirts

    everyone lives happily ever after.

    Why it doesn't work like #2 - markets are imperfect.

    When Yap creates new money, large industrial concerns may almost immediately adjust to the new exchange rates (unless Yap keeps it quiet), increasing the prices they charge, but very importantly not the wages they pay. Retailers almost immediately raise prices to match the manufacturer's. Consumers have no extra income to spend on the now inflated goods. As retail sales decrease companies lay off workers to match the new level of production needed, further reducing retail sales. Again, it results in the death spiral.

    What can be done about it.

    Unified money supply - as the EU does, and as the US does. Individual states cannot simply print money, only the federal government can issue new currency. The EU is actually weaker on this matter than the US since individual states (EU members) can issue new money to a limited extent. Moving this to a global system would be problematic.

    Regulations tying wages to the money supply. Would work, but people aren't going to be happy when their paycheck is smaller, even if that paycheck will buy just as much, it's psychological. To really work, all expenses, even loan values would have to be tied to the market. Banks and lenders aren't going to be happy when suddenly their $1000 loan turns into a $900 repayment. Even though that $900 buys just as much as the $1000 would have at the time the loan was made, its psychological.

    Price setting - setting fixed prices that goods and services can be sold for. It would certainly squash the fluctuating paychecks and loan values, except it doesn't work. A ton of corn grown in the US costs more to deliver to Europe than it does to Canada. If you separate transport costs it may work, but then you also have to consider insurance costs, freak accidents, hurricanes, pirates, thieves, rats, rotting etc.

    Which brings us back to what does work. Limits. There are natural limits on how high inflation can go as eventually the cost of the paper to print the money exceeds the face value of the money. Electronic currency is a bit more problematic only because in theory its far cheaper to add a few bits to the number. So nature, contrary to free market theory, will NOT control the markets.

    What can really be done that works without making bankers and workers cry about wages/loan values - increase M0, decrease the M1:M0 ratio

    How do you increase M0 - Well, to put it bluntly increase employment or hand out free money. Free money is nice, but employment is probably a more sustainable course of action.

    How to decrease M1:M0 - There are several ways, some better than others. A direct increase of the federal reserve rate would limit M1 expansion directly. A more effective method would require 100% reserve on deposits newer than 30 days, with all withdrawals being taken first from the oldest deposits. This would have the effect of encouraging banks to pay higher interest rates for long term deposits, since they really couldn't lend out short term deposits at all. It would involve some additional record keeping, but only of the deposits made in the last 30 days, since any deposits older than that could be lumped together as 'deposits older than 30 days'.
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    Quote Originally Posted by happyclown View Post
    If you live in Australia, the weaker Aussie dollar vs US dollar, as well as book trade protectionism means prices are at 30%+ premium for technical/text books.

    It is cheaper to order online from Amazon.com, then have the book shipped to Australia, than to buy from a local shop.
    Well, you english speaking people really have no clue what are cheap/expensive books. I live in a nation of 4.5 million people and most books are printed here in only few thousand copies. We have expensive books.

    The last book that I bought here was localized version of Art: A World History. The price? More than $150 for this book. It was big and heavy and "every home should have a book like that" so I bought it.

    Next day I saw original english edition in a local book store that carries foreign books and it was only $60. And when I looked on Amazon it was like $39 or something. That was five years ago and since than I'm buying only books in english and mostly on Amazon.
    Last edited by idelovski; 09-21-2009 at 06:54 PM. Reason: Added last sentence.

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    Make the state pay, it works. Look at NASA, a prime example of a nationalized organisation making huge leaps forward in the name of science.
    Um yeah huge leaps forward. We are still going into space strapped to a bomb with 35000 moving pieces. We went to the moon in the late 1960's and here we are now in 2009 and we still have not had any manned flight go farther than the moon. How is that progress? NASA is a huge waste of money that would be better spent in the private sector where you either stay up to date and produce products that compete or you whither away to nothing. Competition is excellent for technological growth. NASA is the epitome of stagnation and of an organization in dire need of an overhaul.


    Democracy in itself is flawed, since ignorance is prevalent in the majority of the population (imo atleast). But surely, if anyone is willing to place a vote on a certain political party, then it's existance is warranted, no? Ignorant or not.
    Yet it has been proven to work and to last so long as government's abide by its fundamental principles. The form of government that you advocate has failed many many times. Looks great on paper, in forums, and in speeches but it does not work.

    BTW the way you spun a discussion about prices and piracy/theft into a political debate is interesting. I guess if you cannot win you just pass laws so things will go the way you want them. Piracy is theft and it will never be legal regardless of how much you wax eloquent on this board and act as if you somehow have the ultimate form of government.

    Laws define what the majority of us think should be legal and illegal, if the majority of the population agree that the law is meaningless and that we can do better, then the law should be changed, do you not agree?
    How can you believe that non-sense? Laws are there as the result of a collective agreement of certain elected individuals. If you don't like the laws then perhaps you are electing the wrong people. You sound like a clueless anarchist.

    Piracy is not theft, only if you buy into the whole intellectual property enchilada, or arguably, it is theft of income (Which some would then argue against since most pirates rarely intend to buy what they download.)
    For some of us here that intellectual property is what puts food on our tables.
    Last edited by VirtualAce; 09-21-2009 at 08:29 PM.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
    Um yeah huge leaps forward. We are still going into space strapped to a bomb with 35000 moving pieces. We went to the moon in the late 1960's and here we are now in 2009 and we still have not had any manned flight go farther than the moon. How is that progress?
    Publicly funded organizations like NASA suffers when governments are busy with other things, NASA was succesful in the 60's, when they recieved the funding they needed.

    Private space exploration on the other hand, has been, well...lacking, would you not agree?

    Yet it has been proven to work and to last so long as government's abide by its fundamental principles. The form of government that you advocate has failed many many times. Looks great on paper, in forums, and in speeches but it does not work.
    I do not advocate a non-democratic government, even if democracy is flawed, there are little viable alternatives.

    BTW the way you spun a discussion about prices and piracy/theft into a political debate is interesting. I guess if you cannot win you just pass laws so things will go the way you want them.
    Not just me Bubba, the majority of the population, democracy remember?

    Piracy is theft and it will never be legal regardless of how much you wax eloquent on this board and act as if you somehow have the ultimate form of government.
    You seem to think i'm trying to justify some sort of communist fascist government, this was not my intention.

    How can you believe that non-sense? Laws are there as the result of a collective agreement of certain elected individuals. If you don't like the laws then perhaps you are electing the wrong people.
    Agreed, so how long will it be before politicians realize that this cause has potential votes?

    For some of us here that intellectual property is what puts food on our tables.
    Well, i can surely feel the heat rising in here, i did not intend to attack you or what you do for a living in any way.

    But i am curious, we obviously have a problem here, pirates are not going to stop anytime soon, seems like the industry won't back down either, so what is your take on a solution then? The pirate party proposes some changes in the laws of copyrights, basically, they want to restructure how selling and buying software works today. What do you propose?
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  11. #41
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neo1 View Post
    Private space exploration on the other hand, has been, well...lacking, would you not agree?
    Because there isn't really much to profit from, is there?
    International laws prohibit (for now) interfeering or removing resources from extra-terrestrial planets. There is a legal niche that allows the mining of asteroids, but we don't have the technology yet. As Bubba pointed out we are still strapping small payloads to huge bombs as far as space exploration is concerned.

    However, you just don't seem to know it, but NASA works in very close collaboration with a vast number of private companies around the world. Most of the technology for NASA today is being developed by private companies carefully patenting their findings on most cases. NASAis today (as it was back in the 60s, but even more now) the central hub of this effort that is in fact driven by private enterprising and ingenuity. NASA is however the face of this effort. And the probable reason why you seem to think they build their rockets, their probes and the fuel to launch them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neo1 View Post
    Not just me Bubba, the majority of the population, democracy remember?
    What majority? Please put things back in perspective, will you?
    This year, the Pirate Party won 7.13% on the Swedish European elections. That is 1 seat in the European parliament. A parliament that holds 736 seats.
    Just open your eyes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neo1 View Post
    But i am curious, we obviously have a problem here, pirates are not going to stop anytime soon, seems like the industry won't back down either, so what is your take on a solution then? The pirate party proposes some changes in the laws of copyrights, basically, they want to restructure how selling and buying software works today. What do you propose?
    A change in laws so that it becomes easier to prosecute and sentence pirates.
    Last edited by Mario F.; 09-22-2009 at 09:09 AM.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  12. #42
    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
    There is no history of laws being changed to justify and allow crimes.
    Oral sex used to be against the law in most of the Western world, as was homosexuality, and plain old adultery.

    Fortunately (for most of us -- no doubt there were many people who lobbied against these changes as well) these things are no longer considered criminal.

    I smoke pot and consider it an unconscionable, deeply immoral act to send people to jail for it, so it is more or less impossible for me to regard "morality" as something that is defined either by the law or majority will. Hitler was democratically elected to power, and the majority in Germany did not appear seriously opposed to him or his policies throughout WWII.

    There are endless other examples of governments and laws being what many people would consider the opposite of just; there is no reason to believe that property rights cannot be (in fact are) abused, perverted and over-extended to serve the purpose of pure, anti-social greed.

    And I have no doubt if we were talking about laws or government policies that did not suit Bubba, we would hear a very different tune about what constitutes right and wrong.
    Last edited by MK27; 09-22-2009 at 09:40 AM.
    C programming resources:
    GNU C Function and Macro Index -- glibc reference manual
    The C Book -- nice online learner guide
    Current ISO draft standard
    CCAN -- new CPAN like open source library repository
    3 (different) GNU debugger tutorials: #1 -- #2 -- #3
    cpwiki -- our wiki on sourceforge

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    Because there isn't really much to profit from, is there?
    International laws prohibit (for now) interfeering or removing resources from extra-terrestrial planets. There is a legal niche that allows the mining of asteroids, but we don't have the technology yet. As Bubba pointed out we are still strapping small payloads to huge bombs as far as space exploration is concerned.
    Nonsense! So far there have been 6 visiting space tourists at the ISS, they each paid around 25 million dollars for that trip.

    Are there no scientists or universities on Earth willing to pay for moon rocks, or perhaps the ability to perform experiments in microgravity?

    How about publicity itself, first man sent in space by a private corporation? I'm sure Coca Cola would want some ad-space on that rocket!

    However, you just don't seem to know it, but NASA works in very close collaboration with a vast number of private companies around the world. Most of the technology for NASA today is being developed by private companies carefully patenting their findings on most cases. NASAis today (as it was back in the 60s, but even more now) the central hub of this effort that is in fact driven by private enterprising and ingenuity. NASA is however the face of this effort. And the probable reason why you seem to think they build their rockets, their probes and the fuel to launch them.
    Just as public postal services do not build their own delivery vans, public hospitals do not build their own CT Scanners and so on?

    Basically what you are arguing is that the private sector was stimulated to innovation, by a publicly founded organization? That has been my point all along, if removing patents also remove the incentive for research and renewal, make the state play that role instead.

    What majority? Please put things back in perspective, will you?
    This year, the Pirate Party won 7.13% on the Swedish European elections. That is 1 seat in the European parliament. A parliament that holds 736 seats.
    Just open your eyes.
    It was merely a 'what if', just as in my original reply to this thread. As of right now, there is no political majority to do anything whatsoever regarding this matter, and that kind of strangles the debate i think. Obviously, current pirate parties have no influence in the grand scheme of things, i'm well aware of this.

    By the looks of it however, that _might_ change.

    A change in laws so that it becomes easier to prosecute and sentence pirates.
    35% of all software installed on computers worldwide, is illegal. It just doesn't make sense to me, criminalizing such a large number of people in the interest of justice.
    How I need a drink, alcoholic in nature, after the heavy lectures involving quantum mechanics.

  14. #44
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    A change in laws so that it becomes easier to prosecute and sentence pirates.
    Yeah because its just a shame that the govt can't search our computers without permission, which is the only way you are going to increase arrests, and without arrests you aren't going to increase prosecution or sentencing.

    I'm as sensitive to the whole piracy issue as anyone else here, but I don't believe it is enough of a problem to warrant such drastic measures.

    I'm far less worried about the individual pirate than I am about the overhead involved with filing patents to begin with, along with the seemingly total lack of oversight that has lead to over-general patents that cover everything from tooth brushes to cement made from moon dust in a single patent.



    Pirate Party?!?!?
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    Last edited by abachler; 09-22-2009 at 10:13 AM.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

  15. #45
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    I'm not speaking of consumers of pirated goods. I'm speaking of the producers and distributors.

    Deal with pirated software and music the same way we deal with counterfeit pants and shirts.
    Allow the recent PirateBay trial to bring some light into new laws that sentence and shutdown these places. Foster better international agreements that make it harder the life of distributors on pirate heavens like Russia or China. Once and for all criminalize pirated materials distribution.

    You asked for other solutions. So here it is. Just because piracy has came to stay, doesn't mean it shouldn't be fought. There's a whole world of other nasty things out there that also came to stay and we don't think making them legal. We live in states of law governed by the letter of the law. Even anarchists defend the book of law.

    Decriminalization of behavior and attitudes based solely on their irrevocability is destroying forever the fabric of our societies since ancient times. That's not how good or bad has been formulated by Law. The question you should pose yourself, Neo1 is not why should we fight what we can't destroy. Instead you should ask yourself, is what we fight worth fighting for? That is the true question. Once it is answered in definite, then our societies make the necessary changes. Like they did for oral sex and like they are doing for homosexual marriages.

    So use that question instead. Don't ask me why anything should be done if we can't stop it. Ask me if it is right to do something about piracy.

    And you know my answer to that.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

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