Obama and Congress giving up on the economy?

This is a discussion on Obama and Congress giving up on the economy? within the General Discussions forums, part of the Community Boards category; Looks like they just gave up and have switched to public health care....

  1. #1
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Obama and Congress giving up on the economy?

    Looks like they just gave up and have switched to public health care.
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    Super Moderator VirtualAce's Avatar
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    I guess if you can't win you have to move into save face mode.

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    -flamebait-
    Perhaps they finally decided that healthcare and wellbeing is more important than money and lobbyists?
    -/flamebait-
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    Reverse Engineer maxorator's Avatar
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    Europe gave up decades ago.
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    -flamebait-
    Perhaps they finally decided that healthcare and wellbeing is more important than money and lobbyists?
    -/flamebait-
    I'll take the bait: Money and lobbyists? That's what the health-care industry is all about! Seriously though, please allow me to make a comment that is intended to be politically neutral: The major complaint about government-run health-care is that the government bureaucracy is rude, inefficient, and corrupt. What's the difference between that and your average insurance company? If you ask me, both sides of the health care debate are addressing the wrong problem.

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    Banned ಠ_ಠ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abachler View Post
    Looks like they just gave up and have switched to public health care.
    don't you remember? they want us to think it's the same thing
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    Quote Originally Posted by sean View Post
    The major complaint about government-run health-care is that the government bureaucracy is rude, inefficient, and corrupt. What's the difference between that and your average insurance company?
    Not much, the main difference i guess is that with a government-run system, everyone would be covered, rather than leaving 46 million people in the dark, inefficient or not.

    If you ask me, both sides of the health care debate are addressing the wrong problem.
    Well, the problem is the 46 million uninsured US citizens, surely? If the nationalized health-care insurance doesn't address that, then what does? I don't follow you.

    Also, i'm not an American so i haven't been following the debate really.

    But ditching the healthcare reform because the economy is bad, surely isn't the right thing to do? That was my point with the bait.
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    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    The major complaint about government-run health-care is that the government bureaucracy is rude, inefficient, and corrupt.
    Where exactly can corruption be thought in terms of the public heath care system?
    As for rudeness, I'm unsure what that means.

    If you ask me, both sides of the health care debate are addressing the wrong problem.
    Oh definitely!
    When you see protesters holding signs reading "Obama = Socialism" it becomes obvious there has been no true debate concerning these issues. The level of ignorance is enlightening. Then I see someone being interviewed and accusing him of trying to lead the country to a fascist state by removing people of their liberties and their rights. And I laugh. What's gonna be then?

    Do these people even know what a Welfare State is? Of course not. They are too busy being afraid of the commies.
    Last edited by Mario F.; 09-13-2009 at 05:10 PM.
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    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

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    Guest Sebastiani's Avatar
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    LOL, good point, Mario.

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    Devil's Advocate SlyMaelstrom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    When you see protesters holding signs reading "Obama = Socialism" it becomes obvious there has been no true debate concerning these issues. The level of ignorance is enlightening.
    No, no... Mario, you misunderstand. Those aren't ignorant people comparing Obama to socialism... you have the wrong operator completely. What they're doing is assigning Socialism to Obama so that the comparison can be made in a future call to the method (with the '==' operator) . Anyway... Obama isn't a global variable, so really it should be out of your scope.
    Last edited by SlyMaelstrom; 09-13-2009 at 05:38 PM.
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    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlyMaelstrom View Post
    Obama isn't a global variable, so really it should be out of your scope.
    Oh, you guys have been coding global variables well since the 19th century. Fix your code.

    (edit: but point taken)
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

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    >> I guess if you can't win you have to move into save face mode.

    I believe you misunderstood abachler's post. It appears he is under the impression (false IMO) that the Obama administration and Congress have entirely stopped paying attention to reviving the economy in order to focus on passing health care reform. While obviously their attention, and more so the attention of the media, is focused on health care reform, they are still paying attention to and talking about the recovering economy. They've discussed whether a second stimulus is necessary and of course are talking about the economic numbers as they come in from week to week.

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    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    When you see protesters holding signs reading "Obama = Socialism" it becomes obvious there has been no true debate concerning these issues.
    Okay, so you have heard of the people in the SW who started showing up outside outside the "town hall discussions on health care" with ASSAULT RIFLES in order to EXPRESS THEIR SUPPORT FOR GUN RIGHTS?!??!

    Now, as a foreigner here I wish I could say that the US is a totally screwed up place, but then I would have to acknowledge that it is not so different where I come from.

    Anyway, I don't think people from Europe, unless they have spend some time here, can really comprehend certain things about the very very dark side of America. They can say all they want about the Declaration of Independence, etc, and that is all true, but it is also true that the place was founded and built by the slave trade. And the slave trade, remember, is not nearly so far in the past as Independence; also, it was not some flash-in-the-pan philosophy like Nazism -- it really flourished for centuries, in fact most of the "Independent" history here existed under slavery.

    Though it is not seriously acknowledged, the families/descendants of the slavers (and we are not talking about a small minority or something) are of course alive and well. Now, I am not saying these are by definition evil people, but this is NOT something they gave up willingly and you would be naive to think a few generations is enough to transform people who pretty much made a lifestyle out of the worst kind of behaviour imaginable* are now going to swallow like, a truly egalitarian society with stuff like universal health care. That is just too nice. When was the last time you saw a Western where some some guy shot someone and an ambulance was on the scene in 5 min?

    I am not trying to say they are the majority, either, but Mario F. -- if you think FEAR is not a very significant (perhaps repressed) aspect of American politics, you are completely wrong. Many people cowtow to the right here because of this in their daily lives and it is hard to blame them. It is not a lunatic fringe inspiring paranoia with paranoia -- it is a large, potentially very violent mass. They may not be allowed slaves any more, but if you think they are going to sit quietly through a discussion of "health care for everyone", think again. You are trying to persuade the Taliban that females should be allowed to go to school!**

    So you're wrong, there has been a true debate, but like most of the true debates here, it's a frightening thing to behold.

    * pretty much; I mean I guess you could chop limbs all day, but really that is hard to sustain and at the same time raise families, build communities, etc. So it is very difficult to hypothesis a society that could, for hundreds of years, maintain a culture more despicable.
    ** eg, it is a prejudice of Western civilization to believe that this is not debatable; if you are from somewhere with health care, where boys and girls go to school together, it may seem crazy that people without either one would reject either of these "options".
    Last edited by MK27; 09-14-2009 at 12:05 AM.
    C programming resources:
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    Current ISO draft standard
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    cpwiki -- our wiki on sourceforge

  14. #14
    Guest Sebastiani's Avatar
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    That's a very interesting point (but not entirely accurate). Slavery was widespread in the sense that there were a great number of human beings being 'traded', for sure, but it was more so a market for wealthy industrialists and farmers than for anyone else (and we all know that there will always be powerful and selfish people willing to take advantage of others). For the most part, anyway.

    But many communities in the South were vehemently against the practice and openly outspoken about it. Even so, there were undeniable cultural barriers that nonetheless marginalized Africans to one degree or another (on the whole, that is - there were many exceptions, eg: highly educated and/or 'socially' articulate Africans, of course), and as a result even the most fair-minded, puritanistically moral were susceptible to employ them under less-than-desirable terms. That being, of course, because in those days, people not being as internationally sensitive as we are now, there was a general consensus that there was somehow an fundamental, and undeniable, difference between the two races. I don't really equate that with racism, per se - just plain ignorance.

    My great-grandmother spent her whole life surrounded by the servitude of Africans (even employing one for over 50 years) and never once expressed any shame whatsoever (at least to me) about the matter. In her mind, I think, it was a natural order of things that made sense in every way. By all accounts, though, these people were treated with the utmost respect and care (and this is going back well over a hundred years), and no apparent sense of discrimination or degradation (indeed, looking back at historical photos I see the bright, shining faces of what appear to be very happy people). So my point is that although people will say what they will about the South, the fact is that things are never quite so black and white (sorry!).

    I'm not defending slaveholders or white-supremists, either - I'm just saying that it's a complicated issue that is often oversimplified.

    But back to your point, I have to agree that my gut feeling is that a lot of this so-called anti-Obama sentiment is racially motivated. I mean, it's one thing to disagree with the guy on his policies, maybe call for a debate, but quite another to (seemingly out-of-the-blue) parade around with "Commie Fascist" signs and sidearms. It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
    Last edited by Sebastiani; 09-14-2009 at 02:10 AM.

  15. #15
    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sebastiani View Post
    By all accounts, though, these people were treated with the utmost respect and care (and this is going back well over a hundred years), and no apparent sense of discrimination or degradation (indeed, looking back at historical photos I see the bright, shining faces of what appear to be very happy people).
    I was not very well versed in US history when I got here, but I have done some reading since then. I was almost shocked by the "civil rights struggle"; this was something I knew dimly of but just how appalling the issues were, and how violent "the stuggle" was I did not.

    Also, judging by the picture painted by older black people here, I don't get the rosy one you seem to want to present. I was also watching old episodes of "See it Now", a CBS news program from the 50's (it was the first "60 minutes"), which included interviews done in Alabama during desegregation. After the ruling came down, they asked students in two schools -- one black, one white -- how they felt about it. The black students seemed positive and optimistic; the white students much much less so and the most outspoken ones were of course upset.

    In the end, as everyone knows, when the schools were desegregated, the black students had to show up with national guard protection, and at some schools NO white students showed up at all in protest. For an entire year. So it is not as if spiteful, oppressive minded whites were an exception -- they clearly demonstrated that they were the vast majority, and no doubt this is why they got away with the atrocities with which the world is familiar.

    That is only 50 years ago, and this is hardly a dead tradition. One of the mayorial election issues here in NYC right now has to do with the fact that the NYPD, which is mostly white (80%+), stopped and frisked hundreds of thousands of people last year on the street without provocation. They are allow to do that (currently); what is contentious is that records must be kept, and of all the hundreds of thousands of "stop n' frisks" last year, 95% were of minority blacks and hispanics. NYC is no where close to 95% black and hispanic -- it is at least 40% white, in fact. Of course, many black and hispanic people have said this is blatantly racist, and it is a little hard to argue.

    That's the liberal north! My point was that, as you say, for your grandmother "In her mind, I think, it was a natural order of things that made sense in every way". No doubt! But isn't that bound to be equally true of how the Taliban think about women? I guess the world isn't ready for universal health care, or at least large portions of it.

    Vis, economics, no doubt economics was a prime motivator in the civil war, with factors that both depended on slavery and ones that were tangential or unrelated. Now I am trying to imagine being a member of "the white middle class" in the south at the time and saying, well, I guess I don't think SLAVERY is very good, but really I have to fight the north for ECONOMIC reasons.

    The economy is not god and it should not be the first and last priority anywhere.
    C programming resources:
    GNU C Function and Macro Index -- glibc reference manual
    The C Book -- nice online learner guide
    Current ISO draft standard
    CCAN -- new CPAN like open source library repository
    3 (different) GNU debugger tutorials: #1 -- #2 -- #3
    cpwiki -- our wiki on sourceforge

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