Obama and Congress giving up on the economy?

This is a discussion on Obama and Congress giving up on the economy? within the General Discussions forums, part of the Community Boards category; Originally Posted by MK27 The economy is not god and it should not be the first and last priority anywhere. ...

  1. #16
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Portugal
    Posts
    7,473
    Quote Originally Posted by MK27 View Post
    The economy is not god and it should not be the first and last priority anywhere.
    And therein lies the irony.

    The discussion of whether a public health care system would be a good thing for the USA should be discussed solely in economical terms with some tangential arguments also being warranted concerning government welfare responsibilities. Certainly if anyone feeling their rights or freedoms are being questioned should address that too. But addressing a concern is not saying "It questions my rights and my freedoms!". It is explaining why they feel it does. It's the difference between a tantrum and an argument.

    The fact the demonstrations were organized and joined by political figures linked to the Republican party is no concern. That's democracy. What is a real concern is that these demonstrations are also linked to right-wing extremist groups. And in this scenario, with these participants, there's no debate going on. Only a ideological and political motivation having nothing to do with the health care system. And in fact, you could see slogans of all kinds, "anti-socialism", "anti-abortion", "anti-immigration"... just not very much really of health-care slogans.

    So while economy shouldn't be the one and all catalyst for reformation (on that I agree on a few cases), I believe this is indeed where it should be best applied. The answer to the question "How to apply health care to the millions that currently don't benefit or can benefit from it?" should be discussed in economical terms. But the weak, almost negligible, demonstration that was completely blown out of proportions by the media had a completely different view: It should be discussed in terms of hate.

    For an external observer like myself, which I then add to recent news giving note of a rise in the right-wing extremist groups in the USA, this serves to show at least to me that the same ghosts of the past still haunt a portion of the American society. More than a test to Obama, having a black president is a test to the American people. But don't tell SlyMaelstrom I ended up replying again on this thread. Shhh!
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  2. #17
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    3,189
    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    Oh, you guys have been coding global variables well since the 19th century. Fix your code.

    (edit: but point taken)
    Hmm, trying to find when we last invaded Portugal, NEVER. So we have a protected variable in our class and as a friend class Portugal decides to make its own class based decisions based on the value of this variable... If you want to do as we say we aren't going to stop you, but that doesn't make it our problem if you follow the laws of a foreign power that does not exercise sovereign authority over you.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

  3. #18
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    3,189
    Quote Originally Posted by Daved View Post
    >> I guess if you can't win you have to move into save face mode.

    I believe you misunderstood abachler's post. It appears he is under the impression (false IMO) that the Obama administration and Congress have entirely stopped paying attention to reviving the economy in order to focus on passing health care reform.
    I am under no such impression. They have in fact switched to paying lip service to the economy rather than implementing corrective legislation.

    While obviously their attention, and more so the attention of the media, is focused on health care reform, they are still paying attention to and talking about the recovering economy. They've discussed whether a second stimulus is necessary and of course are talking about the economic numbers as they come in from week to week.
    If money can fix the problem the problem isn't money.

    In this case, the problem isn't that there isn't enough money in the economy, the problem is that the production of goods and services has locked up, i.e. unemployment is too high. Unemployed persons continue to consume resources (people have to eat, wear clothes, take their kids to school, etc.) yet produce little. Regardless of the official unemployment numbers, which only count the unemployed that are still on the rolls, unemployment is much higher than the official ~10%. This crisis has gone on long enough that most of the unemployed have either dropped off the rolls or have taken low productivity jobs for which they are overqualified, which is also inefficient. Ultimately there can be no 'jobless recovery' because the GDP per capita will not increase unless you either increase GDP by increasing employment, or reduce the capita, and I hope we can all agree that that is not a viable option.
    Last edited by abachler; 09-14-2009 at 10:03 AM.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

  4. #19
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    7,325
    >> They have in fact switched to paying lip service to the economy rather than implementing corrective legislation.

    What legislation are you expecting to be implemented? Do you disagree with the commonly held opinion that we are recovering and that unemployment is one of the last things to improve in a recovery?

  5. #20
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    3,189
    Quote Originally Posted by Daved View Post
    >> They have in fact switched to paying lip service to the economy rather than implementing corrective legislation.

    What legislation are you expecting to be implemented? Do you disagree with the commonly held opinion that we are recovering and that unemployment is one of the last things to improve in a recovery?
    Yes I disagree with the notion that employment is a lagging indicator. It is a leading indicator. Employment drops, the economy goes sour, employment increases, the economy recovers. If people don't have jobs earning money to spend, then they will not spend it. The easy credit market can offset that effect for a period of time, but not forever. Eventually those debts have to be repaid more than full.

    The economy isn't recovering, it continues to lose 250k+ jobs PER WEEK, thus (back of the envelope math here) that is lets say $12.5 billion a week off the GDP... You have to be insane to believe that indicates a recovery.
    Last edited by abachler; 09-14-2009 at 10:18 AM.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

  6. #21
    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    segmentation fault
    Posts
    8,300
    Quote Originally Posted by abachler View Post
    Hmm, trying to find when we last invaded Portugal, NEVER. So we have a protected variable in our class and as a friend class Portugal decides to make its own class based decisions based on the value of this variable... If you want to do as we say we aren't going to stop you, but that doesn't make it our problem if you follow the laws of a foreign power that does not exercise sovereign authority over you.
    This is just out to lunch. Mario F. is not asking to exercise sovereign authority over anyone.

    Americans show a (more than?) healthy interest in the internal politics of other countries, I don't think it is inappropriate in the least for the world's people to be interested in the internal politics of America -- unless you are trying to hide something
    C programming resources:
    GNU C Function and Macro Index -- glibc reference manual
    The C Book -- nice online learner guide
    Current ISO draft standard
    CCAN -- new CPAN like open source library repository
    3 (different) GNU debugger tutorials: #1 -- #2 -- #3
    cpwiki -- our wiki on sourceforge

  7. #22
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    3,189
    Quote Originally Posted by MK27 View Post
    This is just out to lunch. Mario F. is not asking to exercise sovereign authority over anyone.

    Americans show a (more than?) healthy interest in the internal politics of other countries, I don't think it is inappropriate in the least for the world's people to be interested in the internal politics of America -- unless you are trying to hide something
    That was both completely out of left field and missed the point entirely.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

  8. #23
    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    segmentation fault
    Posts
    8,300
    Quote Originally Posted by abachler View Post
    That was both completely out of left field and missed the point entirely.
    I was hoping you would say that
    C programming resources:
    GNU C Function and Macro Index -- glibc reference manual
    The C Book -- nice online learner guide
    Current ISO draft standard
    CCAN -- new CPAN like open source library repository
    3 (different) GNU debugger tutorials: #1 -- #2 -- #3
    cpwiki -- our wiki on sourceforge

  9. #24
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    7,325
    >> You have to be insane to believe that indicates a recovery.
    Does that mean you think the economy is not recovering?

    >> Yes I disagree with the notion that employment is a lagging indicator.
    Why?

    http://static.seekingalpha.com/uploa...upload_nm1.jpg
    Last edited by Daved; 09-14-2009 at 11:12 AM.

  10. #25
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Portugal
    Posts
    7,473
    Quote Originally Posted by abachler View Post
    Hmm, trying to find when we last invaded Portugal, NEVER. So we have a protected variable in our class and as a friend class Portugal decides to make its own class based decisions based on the value of this variable... If you want to do as we say we aren't going to stop you, but that doesn't make it our problem if you follow the laws of a foreign power that does not exercise sovereign authority over you.
    Well, you can trust that on the matter of health care, hardly anyone follows USA lead.

    I however do not understand what's your point. I was suggesting something else entirely. That there is a genuine interest in USA domestic policies. Much as, in this global world of ours, USA is deeply concerned in the domestic policies of other countries.

    To be more precise however, I couldn't care less what health care system you put in place. I don't even have relatives or dear ones living in the USA. Although I could argue there's a sizeable Portuguese community that could warrant my concerns, I don't. The truth is I don't care about this particular issue.

    I'm more interested in something else. What I see -- or think I see -- starting to happen around this and a few other issues. A certain radicalization of speech by the Republican party, the reemergence of extremist nationalism, and a revival of the old Socialism stigma.

    Let me make this more clear than I probably think I should: In the 21st century, the worst example the american society could give to the world of its values and culture, would be the assassination, or attempt assassination, of their head of state. Those days are gone. Over with. A modern and advanced society is much more than a strong economy and a powerful military. It is foremost, a reflection of its citizens education and tolerance levels.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  11. #26
    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    segmentation fault
    Posts
    8,300
    Quote Originally Posted by Daved View Post
    >> You have to be insane to believe that indicates a recovery.
    Does that mean you think the economy is not recovering?

    >> Yes I disagree with the notion that employment is a lagging indicator.
    Why?

    http://static.seekingalpha.com/uploa...upload_nm1.jpg
    So you are saying that unemployment is a consequence of, not a cause of (or pre-cursor to) a shrinking economy?

    The reason unemployment continues to rise at the end of a recession is because normal attrition is taking place, but it is still not being compensated for by normal hiring. Ie, it is not that more people are losing their jobs, it is that not as many people are being hired, so the net effect is negative.

    The Dow Jones has halfway recovered. When there are clear signs of stable growth, employers will have the confidence to start hiring more, and the unemployment rate will shrink back down.
    C programming resources:
    GNU C Function and Macro Index -- glibc reference manual
    The C Book -- nice online learner guide
    Current ISO draft standard
    CCAN -- new CPAN like open source library repository
    3 (different) GNU debugger tutorials: #1 -- #2 -- #3
    cpwiki -- our wiki on sourceforge

  12. #27
    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    segmentation fault
    Posts
    8,300
    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    Let me make this more clear than I probably think I should: In the 21st century, the worst example the american society could give to the world of its values and culture, would be the assassination, or attempt assassination, of their head of state.
    Nobody, including themselves, remotely believes the far right in America is trying to set a good example for anyone. They are quite consciously and explicitly a "worst example" -- that is the goal (it's polemical).
    C programming resources:
    GNU C Function and Macro Index -- glibc reference manual
    The C Book -- nice online learner guide
    Current ISO draft standard
    CCAN -- new CPAN like open source library repository
    3 (different) GNU debugger tutorials: #1 -- #2 -- #3
    cpwiki -- our wiki on sourceforge

  13. #28
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    3,189
    Quote Originally Posted by Daved View Post
    >> You have to be insane to believe that indicates a recovery.
    Does that mean you think the economy is not recovering?

    >> Yes I disagree with the notion that employment is a lagging indicator.
    Why?

    http://static.seekingalpha.com/uploa...upload_nm1.jpg

    and if you look at it another way you notice that historically employment started to drop before the recession and the recession ended as soon as employment started to increase. Only the most recent recessions where the length of the recession is vastly understated under republican rule, does the pattern seem to change. If however you map employment o GDP it paints a more accurate picture. In all cases however, notice that ther was an early (leading) indicator of the recession in that employment leveled off and started to decrease. The decrease in employment is what triggers the recession, not the other way around.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by abachler; 09-14-2009 at 11:36 AM.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

  14. #29
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    7,325
    >> So you are saying that unemployment is a consequence of, not a cause of (or pre-cursor to) a shrinking economy?

    Not exactly, although I'm curious why you think that's humorous. Did you look at the posted graph? It sure doesn't look like unemployment rises until the recessions start.

    My actual point was that the current unemployment rate is not a very good indication as to whether the economy is recovering.

  15. #30
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    7,325
    >> and if you look at it another way you notice that employment started to drop before the recession and the recession ended as soon as employment started to increase. <<

    Exactly. In other words, unemployment only starts to get better once the recession has ended. You made my point for me.

Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Popular pages Recent additions subscribe to a feed

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21