Obama on health care

This is a discussion on Obama on health care within the General Discussions forums, part of the Community Boards category; So I just listened to Obama's speech live on the radio, I was pretty impressed with the idea if he ...

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    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
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    Obama on health care

    So I just listened to Obama's speech live on the radio, I was pretty impressed with the idea if he gets it, altho I think he should have pushed something way more "left" and forget the possibility of him being perceived as a middle path guy, since obviously the far right in America has singled him out as some demonic new entity that could not be anything "moderate", maybe this is racial

    Anyway, I'm a Canadian who's been living in the US for years, and the health care debate has been a riot in the sense that Canada is one of the examples constantly held up as something to avoid because they are too much "socialisticly" so or something*. By riot I mean that I grew up being able to walk into ANY hospital or doctor and get treated just like anyone else and not have to pay for anything, which is a stark stark contrast with life here in the US, so the whole idea that any significant percentage of the population would be objecting to "Canadian" style health care is nearly psychotic.

    But if Obama succeeds, it could be like a big day in history, since American really does lead the world in many ways. While it may be one of the last developed nations to implement universal heath care, it could also be an example to the developing world if it does.

    * what they say about Europe is a constant comedy
    Last edited by MK27; 09-09-2009 at 07:33 PM.
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    Registered User whiteflags's Avatar
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    >While it may be one of the last developed nations to implement universal heath care

    I thought it was insurance reform, and since the public option was thrown away, it is still vastly different from any example anywhere around the world. Not that I think that's bad. I wouldn't want a public option, because it would probably push the interest on the national debt to the extreme.*

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    Super Moderator VirtualAce's Avatar
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    The only type of reform I'm for is the kind that does not put the government at the reigns of the system. Everything the U.S. government touches becomes a huge money pit, largely inefficient, and ends up making the problem it was targeted to address much worse.

    It is my opinion that self-regulated health care and insurance born health care is a more mature system than a government-run health care system. So my view is it is a step backwards. I really don't want going to the doctor to become like going to the place where you get your driver's license. Long lines, poor service, and no one but no one is satisfied in the end.

    And no one has answered the question of who and how we are going to pay for this. You can spout rhetoric and partisanism until you are blue in the face but where are the facts? Who in the world is going to pay for this and how can the U.S. afford it when we have already tripled our deficit by attempting to bail ourselves out of an economic slump? Tingles down my spine and emotional responses to one man's speech is just not going to cut the mustard. We need cold hard facts about who is paying and where is the money coming from. But no worries if I don't get my answer this year I soon will b/c if this passes there is no way in the universe that it can stand on its own without raising taxes. But by the time the taxes are raised people will have forgotten about this debate and will calmly and sublimely accept the tax increase with no thought that the healthcare bill way back when is the cause of it. Politicans and pundits know that people forget things over time and they use it to their advantage. Pass it now, foot the bill later when everyone forgets what was said and promised.

    The answer to who pays for this is the same answer to who bailed Wall Street out. American taxpayers.

    It's quite funny you tout Canada as having great healthcare when several people I used to play games with over the net absolutely detested the health care there. They laughed and it and called it a joke....if you ever got in to experience the joke.
    Last edited by VirtualAce; 09-09-2009 at 09:14 PM.

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    >> since the public option was thrown away <<
    It wasn't thrown away, what gave you that impression?

    >> I wouldn't want a public option, because it would probably push the interest on the national debt to the extreme. <<
    The proposal discussed tonight was clear on several fronts that it would not add to the debt. What do you mean by push the interest to an extreme?

    >> Everything the U.S. government touches becomes a huge money pit, largely inefficient, and ends up making the problem it was targeted to address much worse. <<
    Except for all the things that don't, like social security, medicare, the FDIC, the armed forces, and so on and so forth.

    >> And no one has answered the question of who and how we are going to pay for this. <<
    Two things about this. First, over $600 billion of it has already been accounted for. It's not hard to come up with a way to pay for the rest. One bill has already been proposed that does pay for the reform. So people have answered the question, they just don't talk about those types of details in speeches like tonight's. You have to actually do some research to find the specific answers. Second, in his speech tonight the President made clear that he wouldn't sign something that didn't pay for itself. So even if you're skeptical that they can pay for it, that shouldn't be a reason to be against this plan because it won't even be put in place unless it is paid for.

    >> we have already tripled our deficit by attempting to bail ourselves out of an economic slump? <<
    Note that the recovery package and bailouts were only a small part of the deficit increase. Most of that was leftover from earlier policies.

    >> there is no way in the universe that it can stand on its own without raising taxes. <<
    Actually, that is likely one of the ways that part of the bill will be paid for. If you're against that, then fine, but it's strange to see complaints about the deficits and complaints about higher taxes side by side.

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    Super Moderator VirtualAce's Avatar
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    Except for all the things that don't, like social security, medicare, the FDIC, the armed forces, and so on and so forth.
    The only one that is not a money pit there is the armed forces and that's because I'm biased and understand we need to provide the most advanced and high quality equipment we can to those in uniform. I'm willing to shell out a little more if it means less of our soldiers die in the end.

    Actually, that is likely one of the ways that part of the bill will be paid for. If you're against that, then fine, but it's strange to see complaints about the deficits and complaints about higher taxes side by side.
    I'm a bit surprised at the current administration's willingness to just shell out huge sums of money. It was no surprise to me for the previous admin since the Repubs are not really known for writing checks they can cash. But the Dems are normally fairly good on budget stuff and Clinton, regardless of whether I liked him or not, actually did a decent job on the budget. Baby Bush we all know destroyed the budget but now I see a Dem doing the same just for different reasons. Perhaps we have come to the point in the American system where no President can really salvage the budget so they end up directing the money to different departments and organizations. It seems that all of our recent Presidents and admins have one policy in mind. Spend, Spend, Spend and let the taxpayer foot the bill. I guess it's just not what I expected from a Dem. President and a Dem. Congress. The current administration is a hard one to figure out and categorize.

    I'm not against reform but I am against the government heading it up. I think there is an approach that could fix the issues with the current system without re-vamping the entire system. A software engineer approach would be best here. Don't scrap all of the existing code just make it work to do what we want. Scrapping all of it and starting over is extremely high risk.
    Last edited by VirtualAce; 09-09-2009 at 09:42 PM.

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    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
    The only one that is not a money pit there is the armed forces and that's because I'm biased and understand we need to provide the most advanced and high quality equipment we can to those in uniform.
    I fear to step in. This is your domestic issues. But allow this foreign national opinion on this particular object...

    It is being said that equipment and technology is not cutting it. This is becoming evident on the last high profile american military involvements since the Vietnam War. There's a growing number of voices in the USA and other channels that advocate new ways of waging war against terrorists that don't involve lots of human soldiers parading high-tech and dying in big numbers to no clear effect. The validity of these claims I'm not sure. But if indeed is the case that there is a need to go back to good ol' recrutment, infiltration, and "agent-based warfare" (whatever that means) followed by much more efficient surgical attacks, it may be the case the US military forces are currently the largest money pit in in world.
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    >> The only one that is not a money pit there is the armed forces <<
    The FDIC certainly isn't a money pit, but the larger point was that they all make the problems they were targeted to address much better, not worse.

    >> I'm a bit surprised at the current administration's willingness to just shell out huge sums of money. <<
    I don't understand this sentiment. This administration has supported a pay-as-you-go rule for new legislation. It seems that is similar to the Democrats you praise in your post. The only legislation that doesn't fit this mold was the recovery package, and that was only done as a sort of last resort to avoid an even more serious recession. There really isn't evidence that this administration or congress are any more likely to spend unwisely than the ones you praise.

    >> Don't scrap all of the existing code just make it work to do what we want. <<
    That is exactly what they are doing. Obama said basically that exact thing in his speech. Some progressives want a Canada-style system, some Republicans want a different overhaul. Obama wants adjustments to the existing system to make it work to do what we want. He specifically wants to do exactly what you said!

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    Super Moderator VirtualAce's Avatar
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    I fear to step in. This is your domestic issues. But allow this foreign national opinion on this particular object...
    No worries. That's why it is called a public forum.

    I appreciate that so far in this thread we have discussed issues without becoming personal or derogatory towards one another. I believe it is possible to have good debate without all of that getting in the way and this thread is a good example of that.

    Daved you do bring up some very good points that I do not have any rebuttal for right now so I will not attempt any. I will do a bit more research though on the issue because if what you say is true about not overhauling the system but just 'patching' it up where it needs it then I'm ok with that. It is very hard to get any good information from any news source about what is really on the table b/c so much rhetoric and bias is involved.

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    Registered User whiteflags's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daved View Post
    >> since the public option was thrown away <<
    It wasn't thrown away, what gave you that impression?
    I may have misunderstood this and similar stories.

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    >> I may have misunderstood this and similar stories.
    Ahh yes, that was from a few weeks ago, but really it was an overreaction by the media (possibly a calculated move by the administration, but still an overreaction). Obama said basically the same thing tonight as he has said all along, including in the interviews leading to that article. The important part is the goals of reform, not how they are implemented, but the public option is at this point the best solution for implementing many of those goals.

    Some people think that tonight's speech is the end of the public option, others disagree. I honestly don't know one way or the other, but I do think it is at least still very much in play. It sounds like the final result might be a trigger for the public option so that it would only go into effect if other solutions don't work well enough.

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    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    The healthcare debate is just a straw man designed to draw attention away from the fact that the economy is continuing to circle the bowl waiting fro the big flush. The problem with a house of cards is that even if you prop up the top levels, the rest of the house still crumbles.
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    Registered User whiteflags's Avatar
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    Well the pendulum swings both ways.

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    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
    It's quite funny you tout Canada as having great healthcare when several people I used to play games with over the net absolutely detested the health care there. They laughed and it and called it a joke....if you ever got in to experience the joke.
    Just to make it clear: I've heard this said before and to be honest, I don't believe it. Mostly because it's easy for me to pass for American, and twice in the past few months I've gotten into a conversation with someone about this, and said at some point "Well you know in Canada they seem to have a pretty good system, I hear," when the guy then launched into some story about what "his friends from Canada told him" and the story was totally bogus, like factually inaccurate. Once it got to the point where it was an undeniable lie, I said look, I'm from Canada, what you are saying is just not true. Suprise, both of them said, "Well, that's what I heard. Are you sure?" The point being, someone is lying about something; I don't understand why, but I assume it has to do with polemics. Also, Americans have a very hard time considering the possibility that they do not actually do everything the best, and they seem willing to go a long way to deny or discredit evidence to the contrary. I lived in Canada for 33 years, nobody ever complained about the health care. Nobody. People complain about a lot of things, but that was not one of them.

    Hopefully there are some other Canadians around who can contradict this, but it really is a non-topic there. It is simply never discussed in terms of "something you would want to get rid", eg. if you ran on that platform, it would be political suicide.

    There is a pseudo myth that if you can afford treatment in the States for something, you can go there and avoid a waiting list. Of course, unless you want to pay to absolute max and are willing to travel, there are the same waiting lists in the States. My mom went thru this last yeare when she had to wait 4 months for a hip replacement, so she figured she'd investigate treatment here, and when that turned out to be a six week wait but cost $35000, she changed her mind.

    So the wait for non-essential surgery is real, but if you walk into an emergency room, they save your life. Generally speaking, I think the number of times most people want to have non-essential surgery in their lives kind of makes it irrelevant: like, yeah, I had elective surgery once, I had to wait 4 months. Her mom wouldn't even have had the option. It's not fast food. And everyone gets fed.
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    Reverse Engineer maxorator's Avatar
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    The first time I saw the protests against the government health insurance system on TV, I laughed. I thought those protesters were just a little bunch of antisocial extremists. But when I realized how many people actually were against it, I felt sorry for them. When people walk around with posters saying "Health care is not a right!", to me it feels as absurd as "Freedom is not a right!" or "Education is not a right!". I feel that health care is one of the most trivial right and therefore should be regulated by the government, not by the private sector.

    Also the argument that government health care system does not work properly is totally absurd. USA is probably one of the very few countries that DOESN'T have it. There's one more interesting thing - no countries that have a government health care system are trying to move health care to the private sector.
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    {Jaxom,Imriel,Liam}'s Dad Kennedy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxorator View Post
    The first time I saw the protests against the government health insurance system on TV, I laughed. I thought those protesters were just a little bunch of antisocial extremists. But when I realized how many people actually were against it, I felt sorry for them. When people walk around with posters saying "Health care is not a right!", to me it feels as absurd as "Freedom is not a right!" or "Education is not a right!". I feel that health care is one of the most trivial right and therefore should be regulated by the government, not by the private sector.

    Also the argument that government health care system does not work properly is totally absurd. USA is probably one of the very few countries that DOESN'T have it. There's one more interesting thing - no countries that have a government health care system are trying to move health care to the private sector.
    Health care is not a right. Too many people in this country are out for a free ride. And the middle class (of which I am a member) supports that load. I do not like that I work (hard long hours) so that others can sit at home, watch TV all day long, and crank out babies so that they can get more money from ME.

    Adding on a national health care system is just another slap in my face.

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