How's my new Website

This is a discussion on How's my new Website within the General Discussions forums, part of the Community Boards category; Originally Posted by MK27 It is possible to set a specific absolute font size in a web page, however, that ...

  1. #16
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK27 View Post
    It is possible to set a specific absolute font size in a web page, however, that is not a normal practice and it is not a good one either, since the fonts are not delivered with the web page, they are there on the user-client's system, and if you say I want to use "SomeCarzyFont 19" there is no guarantee that the font will be there or that it will be available in the right size.

    The proper way to specify a font in web programming is to use just a "font-family" (eg serif, sans serif, monospace) and a relative size (small, medium, large). Even then you can run into problems; I noticed on a friend's stock windows system the other day that an x-large monospace must be scaled up and looks awful (because there is no monospace font of sufficient size).
    Well then, we have a problem:
    Code:
    body {
    	font-family: Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif;
    	line-height: 1.3em;
    	margin: 0;
    	padding: 0;
    	font-size: 11px;
    	color: #626262;
    }
    12px is minimum IMHO. And it's not relative size either.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  2. #17
    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    Well then, we have a problem:
    Yeah, as I said you do have the option of doing it the wrong way. That will override your default. However, it will not override your minimum. Notice there are three fonts specified in "order or priority", ending with sans-serif which is really a generic catch all. My system does not have "Verdana, Tahoma, or Arial", so I will end up with Helvetica, which is sans-serif. Too many choices for the muddle brained makes a muddly thing methinks. The combination of serif, sans-serif, monospace, italic, bold, color, and relative size is enough to create clear and consistent distinctions in any document. Beyond that, you are just being asinine. Most entire books usually use only three fonts (bold, italic, normal) in a few sizes. Of course, they are are specific (eg. "typeset in myface") but that is kind of besides the point. Plus, if you want a real fancy font for a title, you can just use an image and make it shiny, 3D, in 256 million colors.

    I suspect this option exists becomes enough people have insisted on it, and they want something like a pdf or postscript file, the form of which is immutable. But that is not a good model to apply on the web, with the restrictions of the client-server setup*.

    * me personally, I don't think the restriction is so bad. Fonts are for letters, letters are for words, words are for writing, writing is for CONTENT. If you are a bad writer with little content to convey, you are bound to be obsessed with "fonts" to disguise your air-head products as real work. Some people will be distracted by anything, no matter how inconsequential or irrelevant.
    Last edited by MK27; 07-07-2009 at 08:03 AM.
    C programming resources:
    GNU C Function and Macro Index -- glibc reference manual
    The C Book -- nice online learner guide
    Current ISO draft standard
    CCAN -- new CPAN like open source library repository
    3 (different) GNU debugger tutorials: #1 -- #2 -- #3
    cpwiki -- our wiki on sourceforge

  3. #18
    and the hat of copycat stevesmithx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    Seconded.
    Also, the font size could be a little bigger.
    Those with smaller monitors will have a hard time reading that.
    This is really the biggest problem on the web today, too small font size.
    you are probably right, methinks.
    For a background color of #101010 and a foreground color of #626262 which i think is used for the content part of the OP's website,

    Juicy Studio: Luminosity Colour Contrast Ratio Analyser


    says that the font size should be larger. So now the question is, are you a bot?
    Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted
    - Albert Einstein.


    No programming language is perfect. There is not even a single best language; there are only languages well suited or perhaps poorly suited for particular purposes.
    - Herbert Mayer

  4. #19
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK27 View Post
    People who need to rely on a specific font for their page 1) need their head examined closely
    Do not get carried away.
    A representative portion of the web is made up of carefully "drawn" websites that try to explore at most all aspects of presentation. This is true of many corporate websites including publicity, art, fashion, or games, to name a few. Many of these websites try to enforce very specific font choices so they can "visually work".

    Meanwhile, and taking that aside for the moment, the decision to make of the website a visual experience is a legitimate one. Carefully planned fonts, and font sizes is perfectly acceptable as a practice, under this context. Web Standards aren't broken in any way because of this choice. At most, accessibility rules may. But this is a perfectly legitimate decision. And sometimes even a necessary one. Not that it matters though; No browser will stop render a webpage because the defined font wasn't found on the user machine.

    As for the web standards themselves... anyone wanting to create 100% Web Standard obeying websites should be the one having their head examined.


    2) probably have not "moved on" from their intro at the Crayola School...it is essentially like #including a whole bunch of non-standard libraries for no good reason, such that the user has to download all that crap just to see the small "g" from someone's fav font -- ridiculous, you are wasting your time, learn how to do some real programming instead please)
    Just because you decide to use an absurd example, that doesn't mean all cases of specific font usage are absurd.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  5. #20
    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    Just because you decide to use an absurd example, that doesn't mean all cases of specific font usage are absurd.
    There is nothing absurd about it and I guarantee that all of those "carefully crafted" websites to which you refer could be done *without* using specific font sizes, because many of them are. It may be that the programmer has to more carefully craft the site, treating it as a web document, and not a desktop publishing file. As I implied earlier, I do not have most of the "fancy fonts" installed and I fail to see how this makes any significant difference to the "visual experience". I am also quite thoroughly convinced that most of the programmers pre-occupied with specific fonts have neglected more complex programming because they can't deal with it. If you turn off "allow sites to specify their own fonts, overriding mine" for a little while you will realize how irrelevant all that was.

    I appreciate the art* and I enjoy web programming. Once again WRT a bit of text, you still have
    • font style
    • font color
    • relative size
    • various forms of emphasis
    • background color
    • borders


    * in which composition includes the concept of clutter, eg "myspecialfont 17"
    Last edited by MK27; 07-07-2009 at 10:09 AM.
    C programming resources:
    GNU C Function and Macro Index -- glibc reference manual
    The C Book -- nice online learner guide
    Current ISO draft standard
    CCAN -- new CPAN like open source library repository
    3 (different) GNU debugger tutorials: #1 -- #2 -- #3
    cpwiki -- our wiki on sourceforge

  6. #21
    Captain Crash brewbuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    12px is minimum IMHO. And it's not relative size either.
    12 px (pixels) or 12 points?

    Whether 12 pixels is too small depends on the DPI of the display device and the quality of the font itself. This is one of the reasons why specifying font sizes in pixels is completely bogus in the first place.

    If you meant 12 POINTS, a measurement which actually has some physical significance, then again I disagree -- 12 point text is for children. It's a pointless waste of screen and page real estate and it makes me feel like I'm reading from a 4th grade ruled notebook. If you have vision problems, you can use the browser zoom feature, or install a local stylesheet as described below.

    At any rate, since the site is using CSS the point is moot. You can install a local stylesheet which overrides the base font size entirely. That's the whole point of stylesheets. If you don't like the designer's choices you can override them.
    Code:
    //try
    //{
    	if (a) do { f( b); } while(1);
    	else   do { f(!b); } while(1);
    //}

  7. #22
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK27 View Post
    There is nothing absurd about it and I guarantee that all of those "carefully crafted" websites to which you refer could be done *without* using specific font sizes
    I could argue those websites could also go without any sort of presentation. What would that lead us to then? Or is it YOU get to decide when to stop?

    The decision to make a website design depend on a specific font is made often based on practical and aesthetical needs. Practical, because the font style may help establish an environment or emotion and this is for some reason deemed important, or even because it follows the official guidelines (many companies use specific fonts in other media). And aesthetical,... because.

    This in fact has been a limitation of the HTML/CSS combination. Contrary to what you seem to imply, the push is exactly to try and create a more structured usage to fonts on the web. Right now, there's only two options available to designers; Either get away from HTML/CSS and design using other technologies like Flash, or provide an alternative website. I can't blame anyone who decides against both.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  8. #23
    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    The decision to make a website design depend on a specific font is made often based on practical and aesthetical needs. Practical, because the font style may help establish an environment or emotion and this is for some reason deemed important, or even because it follows the official guidelines (many companies use specific fonts in other media). And aesthetical,... because.
    All malarky IMO. The concern about using "our business font" is *beyond anal*. I have no respect for people who have nothing better to do than come up with "official guidelines" like that and I hope and pray I never have to work for them.

    I do remember having this personality defect once (pouring over different fonts looking for "just the right one") and I am very happy to be over it now. There are many, many, many more expressive and significant ways to get creative with web pages. As I said, if you turn off "site specific fonts" in your browser you won't miss them after about 10 minutes -- except for sites which are nothing but a collection of dippy fonts.

    The site you refer to seems to be recommending consuming more bandwidth just so the browser can download the proper fonts for a page. This will have to be optional, so fortunately I can disable that sad joke if it ever comes to pass.
    Last edited by MK27; 07-07-2009 at 10:42 AM.
    C programming resources:
    GNU C Function and Macro Index -- glibc reference manual
    The C Book -- nice online learner guide
    Current ISO draft standard
    CCAN -- new CPAN like open source library repository
    3 (different) GNU debugger tutorials: #1 -- #2 -- #3
    cpwiki -- our wiki on sourceforge

  9. #24
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK27 View Post
    All malarky IMO.
    Very well. As you wish. I exhausted my arguments.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  10. #25
    Captain Crash brewbuck's Avatar
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    Well, I guess not all of us can be idealists sitting in our basements producing nothing of value...
    Code:
    //try
    //{
    	if (a) do { f( b); } while(1);
    	else   do { f(!b); } while(1);
    //}

  11. #26
    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brewbuck View Post
    Well, I guess not all of us can be idealists sitting in our basements producing nothing of value...
    No, my room is on the third floor
    C programming resources:
    GNU C Function and Macro Index -- glibc reference manual
    The C Book -- nice online learner guide
    Current ISO draft standard
    CCAN -- new CPAN like open source library repository
    3 (different) GNU debugger tutorials: #1 -- #2 -- #3
    cpwiki -- our wiki on sourceforge

  12. #27
    Banned ಠ_ಠ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK27 View Post
    No, my room is on the third floor
    I'm on the 2nd, but I have really good shades to keep out the sun (It's like nighttime 24/7)
    ╔╗╔══╦╗
    ║║║╔╗║║
    ║╚╣╚╝║╚╗
    ╚═╩══╩═╝

  13. #28
    Registered User asbo60's Avatar
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    wow I never expected so many replies, and thanks for all the suggestions ill definitely be making some modifications.
    Come give my Website a visit and try my new program, all you gamers will love it!
    www.AzA-Productions.com
    Click on applications and download Key Control!

    Also I have tons of extra space available so, if you have a project or application you want the world to see just give me an email at admin@aza-productions.com and ill see what i can do for you.

    Asbo60

  14. #29
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    I would much rather people use fonts as small as they prefer, since this can be over ridden very very easily, than that they start deciding they need to use a larger font which everyone would then be forced to read.
    People are willing to wait for about ~5 seconds on average for a website to load. Isn't it easier for them to hit the "back" button than to change the font setting?

    There are so many sites on the Internet now, that people get to be very picky (except for a few very important sites, for them).

    For me, for example, I almost always hit the "back" button immediately when I see "Please view the site in Internet Explorer", even if most of them do work with firefox.

    Likewise, when I see a site with small fonts, I hit "back", since that's 1 less keypress than "ctrl-+" (and "ctrl--" to change it back when I leave the site).

    Rule of thumb - don't expect the user to change their browser settings (or change browser, or screen resolution, or browsing behaviour) to view your site. Most people view a few hundred sites every day. They don't have time for that.

    If your site hosts the best pr0n on the internet, users MAY be willing to give you an extra 30 seconds. But when it's just 1 out of a few million search results...

  15. #30
    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyberfish View Post
    Rule of thumb - don't expect the user to change their browser settings (or change browser, or screen resolution, or browsing behaviour) to view your site. Most people view a few hundred sites every day. They don't have time for that.
    HOW DUMB ARE YOU PEOPLE? You don't reset your settings. You pick a minimum font size and leave it that way. Permanently. I never see a font smaller than 22. Period. End of story. This is easy to understand. I already know I don't want to see 11p text. I don't need to "rediscover" this over and over. I don't even want to bother with 12 or 14 or 16, which is I believe the vBulletin default. But I see it in 22, just like I see every other site on the net.

    My eyesight is perfect (and clue: I want to keep it that way), but I know people who are not so lucky who use minimums of like 28 or 30 pts. That is why *all* browsers make it *easy* to set a minimum size, and I promise there is a significant number of users who do. I'm kind of baffled and amazed that people who are software programmers are ignorant of this and twice as baffled that they seem to have such a problem grasping the concept.
    Last edited by MK27; 07-08-2009 at 08:42 AM.
    C programming resources:
    GNU C Function and Macro Index -- glibc reference manual
    The C Book -- nice online learner guide
    Current ISO draft standard
    CCAN -- new CPAN like open source library repository
    3 (different) GNU debugger tutorials: #1 -- #2 -- #3
    cpwiki -- our wiki on sourceforge

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