Michael Jackson: dead at age 50

This is a discussion on Michael Jackson: dead at age 50 within the General Discussions forums, part of the Community Boards category; I don't have a TV so I imagine I am missing a lot of the all important media circus action ...

  1. #16
    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
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    I don't have a TV so I imagine I am missing a lot of the all important media circus action on this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharke View Post
    I can't think of any of his songs that were really good pieces of music. How did he "change the face of music forever"? Or are we talking about a very narrow band of influence within a narrow band of Top 40 pop?
    I never bought an MJ album, and I won't claim to be a huge fan, but if "really good music" in the "top 40 pop" genre means catchy tunes, he is responsible for a lot of really good music.

    I do think that from the very beginning many of his songs were lyrically advanced from a poli-sci perspective and still sound that way today, so he could not help but "change the face of music forever". He also was a pioneer in the edgy, slightly dark and disconcerting androgeny of 80's pop. Altho it may seem ubiquitous or cliched today, the fact that it could now seem ubiquitous or cliched is an accomplishment in itself. Micheal Jackson did not end up a cultural icon for no reason.
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  2. #17
    Super Moderator VirtualAce's Avatar
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    He may have sold way more records, but he was no John Lennon. Did he write his own music? Was he a musician, or simply a "performer"? I can't think of any of his songs that were really good pieces of music. How did he "change the face of music forever"? Did any of his songs actually change the music scene? Or are we talking about a very narrow band of influence within a narrow band of Top 40 pop?
    The fact that you have to ask that shows me you know little about music or the history of pop music. Yes he changed the face of pop music forever and he influenced many musicians along the way. Several called in to VH1 and MTV to say without Michael they wouldn't be in the industry. He was not perfect by any means but we don't remember people for being perfect we remember them for what they accomplished along the way.
    Last edited by VirtualAce; 06-26-2009 at 04:12 PM.

  3. #18
    Registered User valaris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK27 View Post
    Is this a "wages of sin are death thing"?

    I imagine someone like you also believes this about Dr. Tiller, or the dead victims of gay-bashing.
    Someone like me finds child molestation outrageous. Someone like you may feel that a few top 40 records excuse this.

  4. #19
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaris View Post
    Someone like me finds child molestation outrageous. Someone like you may feel that a few top 40 records excuse this.
    Let me try and explain to you what I find positively outrageous about Michael Jackson.

    That after his death, and after this many years since the 1993 allegations and the 2004 trial people still accuse him of child molestation out of complete ignorance and unaccountability.

    Michael was acquitted on all accounts and proven innocent.
    Jackson cleared of child molestation | Music | guardian.co.uk

    It's your prerogative that you may want to ignore a court decision (and thus refuse any faith on the judicial system with all its consequences). It's also your prerogative that you may want to ignore the fact everyone -- absolutely everyone -- who knew well and were close to Michael, among them such irreproachable people as Liz Taylor gave their testimony in court saying that Michael could never have done such a thing to a child. You may even want to ignore the fact that in reality you have no proof he did these things, but still accuse him of such.

    God forbid one day you finding yourself on the other side of the walk of life being aired as a pedophile, and after your innocence is proven, you will still have to deal with the ignorant and ravenous of the world who will keep preying on you.
    Last edited by Mario F.; 06-26-2009 at 07:07 PM.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  5. #20
    Registered User valaris's Avatar
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    Did you just use Liz Taylor as an upstanding citizen to back up Michael Jackson? I guess Michael Jackson was proven innocent when he settled his FIRST child molestation allegation to the tune of 15 million dollars? Michael Jackson's Big Payoff - June 16, 2004.

    Michael Jackson is seen by a major population as a pedophile. To be as interested in children as he was and to be accused numerous times of molestation and questionable acts towards children, it's only nature that people will start to believe this.

    I'll pretty much stop here because it's obvious theres a lot of "die hard" Michael fans here.

  6. #21
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Naturally, you choose the bombastic title to support the claim it was a payoff. And of Smoking Gun website, no less. Along with TMZ and others, websites specialized in gossip and slander. I, myself prefer Associated Press, BBC, NBC, and others. See the difference?

    What I do not do is make an outrageous claim without feeling confident about it. And for me to feel confident on anything, I research. Extensively. You see, despite my unaccountability, I do not feel comfortable accusing people basing myself on incomplete information, and gossip magazines. It makes me look bad. Get it? Or do I need to spell it out to you, how it makes you look?

    The 1993 allegations and the 2004 Trial case.

    1. The 1993 allegations were deemed inadmissible in court by the judge.

    2. The settlement establishes that there was in fact no child molestation. It was signed by both parties.

    3. The settlement was made against Michael Jackson wishes. His legal representatives, family and friends wanted for a settlement. Why? Because during the accusations period and media coverage (particularly gossip media responsible for what you call "Michael Jackson is seen by a major population as a pedophile") Michael went into deep depression, became dependent on drugs and his health deteriorated dangerously. There's hospital entry records, medical testimonies and admission records on the rehab clinic he was forced to go. His friends and family feared he would not be able to sustain the even more exposition of a trial.

    ...

    The fact is that gossip media did what they do best. They destroy lives. And people buy for the love of it. The "major part of the population" as you call it, don't buy the New York Times and doesn't read the Associated Press. They buy US Weekly and OK!, or The Sun in UK. They buy this crap and you just need to compare the circulation numbers of a serious newspaper and that of a celebrity magazine. And what do these magazines explore? Exactly the fact most people don't want to think for themselves. They want someone else to do the thinking and them just be served with the results. Our culture has become so asinine that a website like the Smoking Gun or TMZ can display the entire settlement text and they know nobody will bother to read it, much less interpret its contents or compare it to previous statements or news from other sources. They'll just buy whatever the big letters in the title of the article will tell them even if they are outright lies.
    Last edited by Mario F.; 06-26-2009 at 08:49 PM.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  7. #22
    Registered User valaris's Avatar
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    I'm glad you feel so strongly about Michael Jackson. See you at the candle light vigil. Or maybe not...

  8. #23
    Guest Sebastiani's Avatar
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    >> Someone like me finds child molestation outrageous. Someone like you may feel that a few top 40 records excuse this.

    I agree with you, but the investigation was inconclusive (irrespective of the court ruling, that is). To be fair, we should give him the benefit of doubt until/unless we have evidence to indicate otherwise.

    >> Michael Jackson is seen by a major population as a pedophile.

    Though not by the mother of the accuser:

    "An official investigation began, with Jordan Chandler's mother adamant that there was no wrongdoing on Jackson's part. Neverland Ranch was searched; multiple children and family members denied that he was a pedophile." (source: Wikipedia)

    Furthermore, the father of the accuser was recorded as saying:

    "If I go through with this, I win big-time. There's no way I lose. I will get everything I want and they will be destroyed forever...Michael's career will be over" (source: Wikipedia)

    Sounds suspicious to me, anyway. As far as the settlement goes, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong here) it was actually related to Jackson's violation of an agreement to not publicly accuse the family of any wrongdoing, or lying, etc (which he broke by making such statements to the press), and not to the abuse case (where he was found innocent).
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  9. #24
    Registered User valaris's Avatar
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    If you wanna see some firsthand "wierdness" towards children just watch Martin Bashir's documentary on him. He spent a few months at neverland ranch and approached michael at the end with his concerns after multiple children (cancer patietns etc...) admitted to sleeping in his bed etc. You can probably find it on youtube or google video if really interested.

  10. #25
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaris View Post
    I'm glad you feel so strongly about Michael Jackson. See you at the candle light vigil. Or maybe not...
    Guilty until proven otherwise and guilty after proven innocent, right?
    Popular justice at its best.

    As for Michael Jackson, I do admire and respect his work, yes. Particularly during the 80s when his geniality shown through. Slowly I lost interest during the 90s. I felt he went into an easy and highly marketable path of "humanitarian" themed songwriting that I could never identify myself with. Off The Wall, Thriller and Bad will thus remain to me his signature albums.

    I'm by no means a die hard fan, though. I'm not of anyone when it comes to music or acting. Only classical music produced names that I could consider myself a die-hard fan. Of the arts, painting and writing are those two areas that touch me the most and where I'm willing to open myself to such levels of admiration.

    It doesn't bother me that you think that in defense of Michael Jackson, that places me as a die-hard fan. That all my argumentation is reduced to the drivel of a blind follower. I felt you needed the disclaimer above. But that's about it. I've heard enough of you to understand that it's doesn't matter what I can say in my defense. To you, it only matters what your guts tell you.

    EDIT: Ah yes, the Bashir's documentary.
    Here... read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_...ichael_Jackson (especially point 4) And read other news on that. Again... research much, do you?
    Last edited by Mario F.; 06-26-2009 at 10:21 PM.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  11. #26
    Guest Sebastiani's Avatar
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    >> He spent a few months at neverland ranch and approached michael at the end with his concerns after multiple children (cancer patietns etc...) admitted to sleeping in his bed etc. You can probably find it on youtube or google video if really interested.

    It is very wierd behavior, but coming from a person as eccentric as he was, it's difficult to definitively say whether or not this was pedophilic in nature. It's possible that he held the delusion that he, too, was a child, and thus felt that the idea of sharing a bed "with friends" as normal and healthy. Generally, I think you'll find that people who exhibit schizophrenic or similar disorders exhibit behaviour that just doesn't make sense. Condider, for instance, naturalist Timothy Treadwell. This guy was so delusional that he felt perfectly comfortable with approaching wild bears, and even "breaking up fights" between them! Is this sane? Is it reasonable or realistic? Of course not (he was later killed in a bear attack). My point is, you have to keep things in perspective and be objective when trying to identify the motivations and intentions of a person like this.
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  12. #27
    Guest Sebastiani's Avatar
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    >> I'm by no means a die hard fan, though.

    I wouldn't consider myself as a diehard fan, either. As a very young boy, back in the 1970's, I enjoyed the Jackson 5 quite a bit, and during the early 1980's, as a preteenager, like so many my age, I was practically obsessed with his music. But by 1986 I had basically lost complete interest in his music (as well as the rest of Top 40) and moved on to punk rock. I never really listened much to his music again after that.

    But I still appreciate his work, and from time to time I'll even listen to one of his songs. I'll even do a bit of moon-walking every now and then. In contrast, there are a lot of bands that I use to love that I can't even stand to listen to now. Michael Jackson's music isn't like that. It has an undeniable groove, and a timeless quality that sets it apart from so much that has been produced by the music industry. It just doesn't fade away.
    Last edited by Sebastiani; 06-26-2009 at 11:08 PM. Reason: grammer bad was
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  13. #28
    Registered User Sharke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
    The fact that you have to ask that shows me you know little about music or the history of pop music.
    On the contrary, I know a lot about music and its history. I know for example that early Scottish religious music had more of an effect on gospel music and subsequently R&B (and therefore a huge amount of contemporary pop music) than anything Michael Jackson ever did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
    Yes he changed the face of pop music forever and he influenced many musicians along the way. Several called in to VH1 and MTV to say without Michael they wouldn't be in the industry.
    A few Top 40 acts calling into VH1 and MTV and saying that they got into the industry because of Michael Jackson does not mean that he changed the face of pop music forever. I know a lot about music - chords, melody, structure, harmony etc - and I can hear with my own ears such things as "influence." Jackson's "sound" was basically comprised of whichever producer he happened to be working with, whichever songwriter gave him a melody.

    Name one famous pop act that is influenced by the "Michael Jackson sound." Point me toward one Michael Jackson track whose melodic form could be described as "trailblazing" or could be claimed to have changed the face of pop forever. If you talk to serious musicians, you will very rarely hear them say that they were influenced by the music of Michael Jackson. In fact if you trace back through the history of popular music you will see that those who have influenced pop the most are very rarely international superstars and showmen like Michael Jackson. For sure there are a few - James Brown influenced the popular music scene far more than Mickey J, as did the Beatles, the Stones, The Who, Led Zeppelin etc. Then of course you have soul singers like Aretha Franklin and Otis Reading whose vocal inflections, sense of melody and interpretation could be described as having a huge influence on music. But there are far more subtle and lesser known (in terms of international stardom) acts who influenced pop in ways that aren't generally common knowledge, but when you interview contemporary musicians in turns out they've been very heavily influenced by them. Off the top of my head I can think of - Steely Dan, Joe Jackson, Talking Heads, Squeeze to name but four. All of them could genuinely be described as "innovative" and having influenced melody, harmony and structure to a significant degree.

    But of course there is so much more. I could quite honestly say that early rap artists like Grandmaster Flash and Melle Mel changed the face of Top 40 music forever, in a way that Jackson just didn't. Then of course there are the trailblazing house music producers and DJ's that carved a niche that has been internationally huge since and whose musical elements have seeped into a huge proportion of Top 40 music.

    Name one Michael Jackson song that changed things forever. You can't. Don't get me wrong, I think the man was a truly wonderful talent, had an amazing voice and entertained the world on a scale that has never quite been seen before, but a "trailblazer" this does not him make. It's all very well and good to mourn the untimely passing of a man who meant so much to so many millions and I fully respect your appreciation of him, but I just think everyone needs to calm down, sit back and think about the possibility that they're going just a little over the top with this whole "Michael Jackson was a musical pioneer" line. When someone as well loved as Jackson dies there is always going to be a little emotional overreaction and in the case of any loved one's death, rose colored spectacles will prevail. Musicians will call VH1 and MTV and exaggerate the musical impression he made upon them and melodramatic statements will be made by those who wish to make a name for themselves by going down on record as having said X, Y and Z when the whole world was listening.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
    He was not perfect by any means but we don't remember people for being perfect we remember them for what they accomplished along the way.
    Of course, I agree with you. But it doesn't help to portray him as something he wasn't. Let's remember him for who he was - a fantastic showman, a great dancer, a great singer, a very complicated and sensitive guy who brought joy to millions. Just not a "musical trailblazer."

  14. #29
    Guest Sebastiani's Avatar
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    >> In fact if you trace back through the history of popular music you will see that those who have influenced pop the most are very rarely international superstars and showmen like Michael Jackson.

    The question is really subjective. You can't simply define "influential" as mere imitation of sound. He put certain feeling into his music. He performed with an attitude. He had a unique sense of style. And so forth. All of these things can "influence" others in one form or fashion.

    >> Of course, I agree with you. But it doesn't help to portray him as something he wasn't. Let's remember him for who he was - a fantastic showman, a great dancer, a great singer, a very complicated and sensitive guy who brought joy to millions. Just not a "musical trailblazer."

    That's one mans opinion, anyway. The bottom line is, though, is that there are many who feel he made a *huge* impact, and you can't simply write that off as a gross exaggeration from misguided fans. There is a reason why he is called "The King of Pop", you know!
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  15. #30
    Registered User Sharke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sebastiani View Post
    The question is really subjective. You can't simply define "influential" as mere imitation of sound. He put certain feeling into his music. He performed with an attitude. He had a unique sense of style. And so forth. All of these things can "influence" others in one form or fashion.
    No, musical influence is not just a mere imitation of sound. It's a complex interplay of melody, harmony and rhythm, certain elements and combinations of which can be incorporated into another sound to constitute "influence" without necessarily being imitation. For instance I have at one time or another been musically influenced by the quartal harmony of some of Joni Mitchell's music, without going so far as to imitate it. I've written guitar pieces that in parts are influenced by Italian Renaissance lute music in terms of harmony, but I'm not imitating any particular piece. A huge proportion of mainstream popular music uses harmonic devices that were pioneered by the likes of Beethoven, Mozart and Hayden. In fact I remember reading an article years ago written by some guy who had identified hundreds of musical phrases by Mozart in some of the worlds most successful pop songs. It's not as if these phrases were lifted directly as imitation, but rather that they have been ingrained into musical culture and have exerted a tremendous influence.

    Yes, Jackson put a certain feeling into his music (he had a distinct vocal style). He had a unique visual style. You can recognize his dance moves. But none of this means that he "changed the face of pop forever." I just don't really see the influence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sebastiani View Post
    That's one mans opinion, anyway. The bottom line is, though, is that there are many who feel he made a *huge* impact, and you can't simply write that off as a gross exaggeration from misguided fans. There is a reason why he is called "The King of Pop", you know!
    Nobody's disputing that he made a huge impact - but the question is, upon whom? Upon his fans, or upon other artists whose music was subsequently influenced by him? Like I said, it's very hard to say that someone's music has been influenced by Michael Jackson because he was not really a composer or an arranger. He was a singer who worked with many different producers and songwriters. We could then say his vocal style made a huge impact - but while it may well have been critically acclaimed and much loved, I just don't see any distinct element of pop vocals that could be said to have originated from Michael Jackson. Of course, anyone should feel free to point out any specifics they may have in mind.

    Sure, he is called "The King of Pop" for a reason....because certain journalists in the media have thrust the label upon him. I see him as having released a few pretty good tracks. My brother was heavily into him in the 80's so I got to hear him a lot up until the time I left home, around 1991 or so. I was of the opinion that like many successful pop artists, his albums consisted of two or three "hits" surrounded by forgettable pop filler. You can play a Michael Jackson album and most people aren't familiar with at least half of the tracks. But play a classic Beatles album....the songs are far more ingrained into popular culture. And put it this way - how many times have you heard a street busker singing a Beatles tune, compared with a Michael Jackson tune? There is an element of monumental prestige surrounding the music of The Beatles which was obviously why Jackson spent a vast fortune to procure the rights to their songs. I just don't see the same kind of musical prestige and songwriting respect ever being heaped upon the songs of Michael Jackson.

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