I hate Australia

zacs7 · 11-28-2008, 03:52 AM

Anyway, since everyone likes to rant about internet

I turned off my internet this week to upgrade to ADSL2+ with another provider. Only to find out my phone line is shared -- called "Pair Gain" or something stupid like that.

I live in a fairly new Estate. Our biggest telecoms provider, who owns 99% of the infrastructure once government owned but now in the private sector continues to split phone lines in new developments! What the hell!?!? They know it's not future proof, and the cram upto 24 "phone lines" down one copper line (that would normally be a single line).

It's pathetic, and there's all this talk of upgrading the trans-Atlantic cables, blah, blah, blah. When 1 million people (about 5% of Australia) live in ADSL areas but are unable to get ADSL!?!? It makes no sense. And where this "RIM" devices have no more slots, you have to buy IDSN or dial-up at almost $200AUD a month for IDSN.

My Dad's a site manager in construction, and he said installing "RIM" lines and so forth is insisted upon by the phone company / higher ups.

The funny thing is, I can get ADSL2+ but I have to go with the evil ISP who is responsible for the phone lines (they charge outrageous prices for terrible plans). They also don't wholesale ADSL2+ to other ISPs in cases such as this... pathetic!

/rant over

Is Australia the only country that does things like this? They continue to install non-future proof phone and internet lines. But the exchanges are being upgraded -- it doesn't make a difference if people can't bloody get a line to them.

abachler · 11-28-2008, 08:26 AM

Yes, where I live you dont even get the choice of a different ISP for DSL, you either get DSL from the phone company or noone. You can get cable from one cable company, and satellite from different providers, or you can get a T1 or T3 connection through the phone company too.

novacain · 12-01-2008, 09:37 PM

PGS: (Pair Gain System). A method of splitting one copper pair into multiple pairs, used to extend the capacity of the aging copper network. Mainly used in older suburbs, instead of running optic fibre or more new copper. An advantage of older suburbs is that they are usually run with thick (0.6mm) copper, rather than the normal (0.4mm) copper. this allows faster ADSL on longer line runs (ADSL is limited to ~5Km fom the exchange as the line runs).

ADSL: Voice only uses the lower freq on a copper pair line. ADSL uses the higher freq ranges.

Australian Broadband:
Only Telstra can install the copper phone network, and so install RIMs (Remote Integrated Multiplexer).

RIMs are feed from the exchange by optic fibre (usually). RIMs can be fitted with a CMUX or MiniMux which allows up to 128 ADSL1 connections. Most RIMs can only fit one or two CMUXs.

Only Telstra sells ADSL1, retail and wholesale. So if you are on a RIM you have no choice but to buy (directly or indirectly) from Telstra.

Telstra refuses to sell ADSL2 unless another ISP has installed a DSLAM (ADSL2+ capable device in the exchange). Telstra often refuses other ISPs access to the exchange, claiming the exchange does not have the room for another DSLAM (etc).

This means Telstra does not have to compete directly with the cheaper ISPs (by restricting the customers options to ADSL1 or Telstra ADSL2+).

Does that explain why RIMs are so popular with Telstra?

Try mobile wireless (HSPA), are a few ISPs now.

Think yourself lucky.

I have had a fault on my home phone line for two years now, as do 13% of all copper lines.

Telstra has declared the line 'dirty', meaning no faults can be reported on the line until work is undertake to fix the issue. Two years later Telstra has no plans to fix the problem. I can not pay for the fix and it is a federal crime to interfer with the lines.

I can not get it fixed no matter what I do.
TIO can do nothing, DDSO is meaningless, GSO does not cover broadband, 'Broadband Choice' is not in urban areas if the exchange has ADSL capacity (even if no one can get ADSL).

Two years ago I had >3Mb/s. Now I am lucky to get 1Mb/s.

I still have to pay the same price however.......

EDIT: The upshot is I have support contracts with FMG, BHP, Rio Tinto etc that require a 1 hour response. Is quicker for me to drive to the office and investigate than work from home, so this thas a massive effect on my life. It is not that I want faster p0rn.

zacs7 · 12-01-2008, 10:51 PM

> Does that explain why RIMs are so popular with Telstra?
It certainly does! Thanks for the info :-). Funny how you knew I was talking about Telstra, but who else could it have been?

Shame that Telstra upgraded the exchange, what's even worse is that my Estate is across the road from the exchange... my new ISP did put in an application to on-sell ADSL2+ to me. However it was denied. :-(

Thanks again novacain, BTW what city are you in?

PS: Perhaps the title of this thread was a bit over the top :-). I just hate Australian internet... mainly Telstra -- it never should have been privatized!.

P4R4N01D · 12-01-2008, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zacs7

PS: Perhaps the title of this thread was a bit over the top :-). I just hate Australian internet... mainly Telstra -- it never should have been privatized!.

Yeah, something like "I hate Telstra" or "I hate Australain industry would be more appropriate". There are plenty of things to like about Australia (funny enough, non of them involve big corporations).

Mario F. · 12-02-2008, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zacs7

> Does that explain why RIMs are so popular with Telstra?
It certainly does! Thanks for the info :-). Funny how you knew I was talking about Telstra, but who else could it have been?

Nothing else indeed. For even a foreigner like me came to hate it right in the first week after requesting internet access. When I left Australia in late 2005 there were already some talks about Telstra eventually being forced to split and sell some of its lines. Never happened? Is it still going to happen?

PS: I can see the AFL still forces all clubs websites under its wing and consequently through its exclusive contract with BigPond.

zacs7 · 12-02-2008, 11:13 PM

> Never happened? Is it still going to happen?
Not a chance, but other companies are installing lines and infrastructure. Which of course connects to the existing stuff, so Telstra still has a large amount of power. Even with Telstra shares being worth as much as, well, nothing

BTW, How long did you live in Australia for?

IceDane · 12-03-2008, 06:28 PM

Sounds like a monopolized market without any real competition - I mean, other companies can't compete if only one company can give you ADSL.

It's kind of funny though, I hear about stuff like this in the english speaking countries all the time, which are supposed to be some of the more developed ones in the world.

I live in Denmark and I can choose where I want to get my internet connection. As far as I understood, that was somewhat of a problem for you. I can also get cable from one company and internet through that and then have my phone connected to the phone lines, and even have another internet connection through that. On top of that, fiber optics are getting more and more popular.

I pay 299,- DKK, which is equal to 79 AUD a month for 10 mbit connection. Actually, it's up to 20 mbit, but my old copper lines can't handle anything more than 10 without the connection constantly screwing up. Included in that price is a home phone number, that uses VoIP.

Mario F. · 12-03-2008, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IceDane

It's kind of funny though, I hear about stuff like this in the english speaking countries all the time, which are supposed to be some of the more developed ones in the world.

I don't think it's restricted to English speaking countries, or even related. Portugal has the same problem too. It's more to do with those countries that had government control of the telecom infrastructure through a public company and then privatized said company and sold them in bulk the whole of the network.

Quote:

BTW, How long did you live in Australia for?

7 years overall with a 1 year interval in between when my father passed away. In sunny Glenelg, Adelaide most of the time and 1 year in Port Augusta.

zacs7 · 12-03-2008, 09:35 PM

Well if you were in SA and liked Australia then you'd certainly love everywhere else! Other than perhaps the Northern Territory

What I don't understand is how Telstra can charge for upload quota, but the ISPs who buy off Telstra don't?!?

C_ntua · 12-03-2008, 10:10 PM

Well, I am from Greece. Here is the situation here. I would like to hear how are the prices in other countries.

The best choice today is a package with:
+ ADSL (up to 24Mb/s, but you get around 8Mb/s)
+ Free phone calls, both local and international (24 countries)
Cost: 30-35 euros / month

There is one main company, used to be the national, now its private. It owns the lines, though some other companies are starting to make their own network. But it lends them, so we have like 5-6 ISP providers which made the prices combetetive (in a way).
Before 3 years you used to pay 60euros / month only for the ADSL. So like 100 euros / month total (for 386 kb/s)

abachler · 12-03-2008, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zacs7

Well if you were in SA and liked Australia then you'd certainly love everywhere else! Other than perhaps the Northern Territory

What I don't understand is how Telstra can charge for upload quota, but the ISPs who buy off Telstra don't?!?

Its called variable pricing, its illegal here in the states, although they never really enforce it. Telstra doesnt charge quotas to the ISP's, only to their customers. The whole quota idea is antiquated anyway, the equipment costs the same to maintain whether you are using it or not.

Mario F. · 12-03-2008, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zacs7

Well if you were in SA and liked Australia then you'd certainly love everywhere else! Other than perhaps the Northern Territory

Man! Say no more. Bet you're in Victoria.

EDIT: Must warn you... despite being a foreigner I do get a little red eyed at those insisting in bashing SA. Particularly Victorians.

PEDIT: You can say bad things about the Crows though. In fact, if you do everything else will be forgiven

zacs7 · 12-03-2008, 11:21 PM

> Man! Say no more. Bet you're in Victoria.
Yeah good guess, I'm in Melbourne but I'm originally from Perth.

There's nothing to do in SA though?! Except maybe go swimming with sharks

As for the Crows, pfft they aren't even an AFL team just a club that happens to be in the AFL with a team

. I go for Fremantle anyway, and they suck worse haha.

novacain · 12-05-2008, 05:17 AM

Been off playing with trains in the Pilbara, WA. 3300 Km by plane and 750Km by 4WD in three days (plus the work).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mario F.

PS: I can see the AFL still forces all clubs websites under its wing and consequently through its exclusive contract with BigPond.

It is part of the over all Telstra plan. You have to give them credit for a well thought out business model (designed to get their customers to pay as much as possible).

Telstra has set very low quotas for data (starting a t 200Mb) and charge for up/down.
Then offer lots of pay to view services, excluding them from the quota.

This encourages your customers not to wander from within your content (paying as they go). It also discourages large downloaders.

Then all you have to do is ensure a percentage of the population has no choice but to use your services.

Then you can charge a fortune for them.

200Mb (up + down) ADSL2+ Au$40 + $27 line rental + calls not included.

to

60Gb (up + down) ADSL2+ Au$150 + $27 line rental + calls not included.

Extra data on both accounts is charged at Au$150 per Gb!

That leads to some very nasty surprises (at the end of the month) for someone on the 200Mb plan downloading a few Mb per minute....

11-28-2008, 03:52 AM	#1
zacs7 Woof, woof! Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 3,290	I hate Australia Anyway, since everyone likes to rant about internet I turned off my internet this week to upgrade to ADSL2+ with another provider. Only to find out my phone line is shared -- called "Pair Gain" or something stupid like that. I live in a fairly new Estate. Our biggest telecoms provider, who owns 99% of the infrastructure once government owned but now in the private sector continues to split phone lines in new developments! What the hell!?!? They know it's not future proof, and the cram upto 24 "phone lines" down one copper line (that would normally be a single line). It's pathetic, and there's all this talk of upgrading the trans-Atlantic cables, blah, blah, blah. When 1 million people (about 5% of Australia) live in ADSL areas but are unable to get ADSL!?!? It makes no sense. And where this "RIM" devices have no more slots, you have to buy IDSN or dial-up at almost $200AUD a month for IDSN. My Dad's a site manager in construction, and he said installing "RIM" lines and so forth is insisted upon by the phone company / higher ups. The funny thing is, I can get ADSL2+ but I have to go with the evil ISP who is responsible for the phone lines (they charge outrageous prices for terrible plans). They also don't wholesale ADSL2+ to other ISPs in cases such as this... pathetic! /rant over Is Australia the only country that does things like this? They continue to install non-future proof phone and internet lines. But the exchanges are being upgraded -- it doesn't make a difference if people can't bloody get a line to them. __________________ "I.T. gets the chicky-babes" - M. Kelly bakefile \| vim
zacs7 is offline

11-28-2008, 08:26 AM	#2
abachler Malum in se Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 3,188	Yes, where I live you dont even get the choice of a different ISP for DSL, you either get DSL from the phone company or noone. You can get cable from one cable company, and satellite from different providers, or you can get a T1 or T3 connection through the phone company too. __________________ Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.
abachler is offline

12-01-2008, 09:37 PM	#3
novacain train spotter Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: near a computer Posts: 3,448	PGS: (Pair Gain System). A method of splitting one copper pair into multiple pairs, used to extend the capacity of the aging copper network. Mainly used in older suburbs, instead of running optic fibre or more new copper. An advantage of older suburbs is that they are usually run with thick (0.6mm) copper, rather than the normal (0.4mm) copper. this allows faster ADSL on longer line runs (ADSL is limited to ~5Km fom the exchange as the line runs). ADSL: Voice only uses the lower freq on a copper pair line. ADSL uses the higher freq ranges. Australian Broadband: Only Telstra can install the copper phone network, and so install RIMs (Remote Integrated Multiplexer). RIMs are feed from the exchange by optic fibre (usually). RIMs can be fitted with a CMUX or MiniMux which allows up to 128 ADSL1 connections. Most RIMs can only fit one or two CMUXs. Only Telstra sells ADSL1, retail and wholesale. So if you are on a RIM you have no choice but to buy (directly or indirectly) from Telstra. Telstra refuses to sell ADSL2 unless another ISP has installed a DSLAM (ADSL2+ capable device in the exchange). Telstra often refuses other ISPs access to the exchange, claiming the exchange does not have the room for another DSLAM (etc). This means Telstra does not have to compete directly with the cheaper ISPs (by restricting the customers options to ADSL1 or Telstra ADSL2+). Does that explain why RIMs are so popular with Telstra? Try mobile wireless (HSPA), are a few ISPs now. Think yourself lucky. I have had a fault on my home phone line for two years now, as do 13% of all copper lines. Telstra has declared the line 'dirty', meaning no faults can be reported on the line until work is undertake to fix the issue. Two years later Telstra has no plans to fix the problem. I can not pay for the fix and it is a federal crime to interfer with the lines. I can not get it fixed no matter what I do. TIO can do nothing, DDSO is meaningless, GSO does not cover broadband, 'Broadband Choice' is not in urban areas if the exchange has ADSL capacity (even if no one can get ADSL). Two years ago I had >3Mb/s. Now I am lucky to get 1Mb/s. I still have to pay the same price however....... EDIT: The upshot is I have support contracts with FMG, BHP, Rio Tinto etc that require a 1 hour response. Is quicker for me to drive to the office and investigate than work from home, so this thas a massive effect on my life. It is not that I want faster p0rn. __________________ "Man alone suffers so excruciatingly in the world that he was compelled to invent laughter." Friedrich Nietzsche "I spent a lot of my money on booze, birds and fast cars......the rest I squandered." George Best "If you are going through hell....keep going." Winston Churchill Last edited by novacain; 12-01-2008 at 09:41 PM.
novacain is offline

12-01-2008, 10:51 PM	#4
zacs7 Woof, woof! Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 3,290	> Does that explain why RIMs are so popular with Telstra? It certainly does! Thanks for the info :-). Funny how you knew I was talking about Telstra, but who else could it have been? Shame that Telstra upgraded the exchange, what's even worse is that my Estate is across the road from the exchange... my new ISP did put in an application to on-sell ADSL2+ to me. However it was denied. :-( Thanks again novacain, BTW what city are you in? PS: Perhaps the title of this thread was a bit over the top :-). I just hate Australian internet... mainly Telstra -- it never should have been privatized!. __________________ "I.T. gets the chicky-babes" - M. Kelly bakefile \| vim Last edited by zacs7; 12-01-2008 at 10:53 PM.
zacs7 is offline

12-02-2008, 11:13 PM	#7
zacs7 Woof, woof! Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 3,290	> Never happened? Is it still going to happen? Not a chance, but other companies are installing lines and infrastructure. Which of course connects to the existing stuff, so Telstra still has a large amount of power. Even with Telstra shares being worth as much as, well, nothing BTW, How long did you live in Australia for? __________________ "I.T. gets the chicky-babes" - M. Kelly bakefile \| vim
zacs7 is offline

12-03-2008, 06:28 PM	#8
IceDane Ex scientia vera Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 464	Sounds like a monopolized market without any real competition - I mean, other companies can't compete if only one company can give you ADSL. It's kind of funny though, I hear about stuff like this in the english speaking countries all the time, which are supposed to be some of the more developed ones in the world. I live in Denmark and I can choose where I want to get my internet connection. As far as I understood, that was somewhat of a problem for you. I can also get cable from one company and internet through that and then have my phone connected to the phone lines, and even have another internet connection through that. On top of that, fiber optics are getting more and more popular. I pay 299,- DKK, which is equal to 79 AUD a month for 10 mbit connection. Actually, it's up to 20 mbit, but my old copper lines can't handle anything more than 10 without the connection constantly screwing up. Included in that price is a home phone number, that uses VoIP. __________________ "What's up, Doc?" "'Up' is a relative concept. It has no intrinsic value."
IceDane is offline

12-03-2008, 09:35 PM	#10
zacs7 Woof, woof! Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 3,290	Well if you were in SA and liked Australia then you'd certainly love everywhere else! Other than perhaps the Northern Territory What I don't understand is how Telstra can charge for upload quota, but the ISPs who buy off Telstra don't?!? __________________ "I.T. gets the chicky-babes" - M. Kelly bakefile \| vim
zacs7 is offline

12-03-2008, 10:10 PM	#11
C_ntua Registered User Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,274	Well, I am from Greece. Here is the situation here. I would like to hear how are the prices in other countries. The best choice today is a package with: + ADSL (up to 24Mb/s, but you get around 8Mb/s) + Free phone calls, both local and international (24 countries) Cost: 30-35 euros / month There is one main company, used to be the national, now its private. It owns the lines, though some other companies are starting to make their own network. But it lends them, so we have like 5-6 ISP providers which made the prices combetetive (in a way). Before 3 years you used to pay 60euros / month only for the ADSL. So like 100 euros / month total (for 386 kb/s)
C_ntua is offline

12-03-2008, 11:21 PM	#14
zacs7 Woof, woof! Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 3,290	> Man! Say no more. Bet you're in Victoria. Yeah good guess, I'm in Melbourne but I'm originally from Perth. There's nothing to do in SA though?! Except maybe go swimming with sharks As for the Crows, pfft they aren't even an AFL team just a club that happens to be in the AFL with a team . I go for Fremantle anyway, and they suck worse haha. __________________ "I.T. gets the chicky-babes" - M. Kelly bakefile \| vim
zacs7 is offline

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