what language should i use to

This is a discussion on what language should i use to within the Game Programming forums, part of the General Programming Boards category; it really doesn't matter too much what language a game was made in... you can recreate it in any other ...

  1. #16
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    it really doesn't matter too much what language a game was made in... you can recreate it in any other language. just saying.
    (in some cases with very varied results... but yea)

  2. #17
    Super Moderator VirtualAce's Avatar
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    If you have some programming experience but not much, but would like to create a game simply and quickly. Then Java is a good place to start, as it will allow you to get into programming and hide some of the complexity like memory management.
    If you cannot manage memory:

    • You shouldn't be programming
    • You shouldn't be programming a game


    So many want to skip the fundamental steps and just jump right into game programming or just programming in general. Skipping steps like memory management may get the job done faster but in the end you are still clueless and have not become anything close to a good programmer. Don't short circuit the learning process by selecting a language that allows you to get away with murder or get used to extremely bad habits. I don't even think Java was designed for people looking to get away from the idea of memory management but sadly that has been it's main attracting point.

    It's like driving a car down the road. Yes you can drive from A to B but if anything goes wrong with the car you are absolutely clueless as to how to fix it. This is fine if you are just interested in driving the car. When you are programming you are NOT the driver. You are the mechanic. Do you want a mechanic who is clueless working on your car? Do you want a programmer who is clueless programming your next game?

    Memory management is an absolutely essential skill for game programmers. A game is all about data and tons of it. If you cannot manage the data efficiently then you don't have a game - you have a really cool slide show that will eventually crash.

    it really doesn't matter too much what language a game was made in... you can recreate it in any other language. just saying.
    (in some cases with very varied results... but yea)
    Not true. You can attempt to recreate the game in another language but you will not get the same exact results because not all languages are alike. And languages are designed to address very different programming concerns.

    if you look at modern games like forza motorsports 2 on the 360. what language is that made in, does anyone have any ideas
    More than likely these are coded with C/C++ combined with native assembly language for the 360. Memory management on these types of systems is so crucial that the manager probably gets a very good dedicated programmer for this task. Memory is not as abundant on these systems and hard drives are not as fast as they are on the PC - and perhaps the DVD drive is not as fast as some on the PCs. Due to these constraints you will find very few games that are exactly similar to their PC counterparts. This is also good marketing since the PC owner may already own the game on the PC so why would he/she buy it for the console? By changing the story lines or changing the gameplay the game can be enjoyed both on the PC and the console.

    use macromedia flash, it has an OOP oriented IDE and such, blabla. :-) tons of tutorials, etc etc... most games around the net are flash or shockwave so you see it's popular.

    ActionScript is pretty much JavaScript just OOP and added language features.

    It's far simpler than doing such a project with the same potential in c++ without the extra work. Flash can hand all sorts of audio files for you, and all that mess. You really just focus on game logic in Flash, you also should be patient with flash, it has a learning curve as well.

    flash also has 3d capabilities, so you can display models and adjust the camera, etc....

    Java won't look or work as nice as flash apps right away*, both java and c++ applications will require an obscene amount of "messaging" just to -render- the graphics as flash already does.

    in flash you just worry about putting all the resources together, and as i said, game logic.
    Which in the end leaves you clueless about actually programming a game. I've not seen any flash games that I was all that impressed with. Most look like fancy versions of old Atari 2600 games. Not anything to write home about.

    I've been working professionally in Java for almost a decade and never missed the ability to explicitly handle memory...

    The reason why calling Runtime.gc() slows down your system (usually momentarilly) is the heavy operation it triggers (if it triggers anything of course).
    When letting the JVM do its own thing it runs at a constant trickle in the background, consuming only spare CPU cycles when it can and not pushing itself into the limelight unless it has to.
    The memory footprint for the JVM is absolutely insane. So essentially what you are saying is that Java frees memory when and if it wants to? Not exactly good inside of a pre-emptive multitasking system eh? Java is good for what it was designed for. It is caca for games.

    If you want to program games then use C/C++ and a graphics library of your choice. Excuses like 'C/C++ takes so many lines of code to do this or that...' are just not valid in my book. So you want to program games but you don't want to code a lot? Laziness is a horrible reason for choosing a language or not choosing one.
    Last edited by VirtualAce; 08-16-2007 at 01:53 AM.

  3. #18
    Registered User mmarab's Avatar
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    Which is your book?

  4. #19
    Registered User mmarab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roobert View Post
    What language should i use to make little games? like a language that is easy to make games for.
    He/she wanted to make a little game!! That is easy to make games for!!! Dont make everything so serious Bubba! Its supposed to be fun!
    Last edited by mmarab; 08-16-2007 at 05:22 AM.

  5. #20
    Super Moderator VirtualAce's Avatar
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    Easy little games eh. Ok.

    1. Games are not easy programming.
    2. If you are looking for easy, don't program games.

    I don't like the quick fix attitude and while this may work for tic tac toe....it won't work for other projects.

  6. #21
    Registered User mmarab's Avatar
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    I agree games are complex to program and its not an easy task. I'm not disagreeing with you.

    All I’m saying is that some people don’t wont to code the next Halo or Forza Motor Sport etc. They just want to have a bit of fun and make some simple little games. If they then in the future want to get more serious about it, they will need to learn the hardcore stuff. But don’t make it sound so serious; games are fun, that’s why people play them. Even if it is Tic Tac Toe.

  7. #22
    Super Moderator VirtualAce's Avatar
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    But don’t make it sound so serious; games are fun, that’s why people play them.
    Playing them, yes. Creating them is not always 'fun'. The end result should be fun but creating them and the algorithms that power them is not always super uber 'fun.' Sometimes it's downright difficult and frustrating.

    Hell there are times when I don't even want to touch my game code because it's not always 'fun.' More like 'work.'

  8. #23
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    learning it is fun.

    And I visit a site of simple games created with flash and the like that are really well made and could easily be ported to XBLA or PSN, and some of which were made in a deadline for contests and such, so I don't dismiss small games just because they aren't as hard to make as easy ones. check out jayisgames.com. Some people only ever program games in flash, and look at all the sites that are dedicated to them. I like big adventurous and epic games, but in my long history in playing games they don't always work out, leaving the developers unheard of until their next iteration which may or may not do better. Hell, look at David Jaffe's example. He left Sony to start a small games company because his games he felt didn't match up to the effort put in them.

  9. #24
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    Which in the end leaves you clueless about actually programming a game. I've not seen any flash games that I was all that impressed with. Most look like fancy versions of old Atari 2600 games. Not anything to write home about.

    ok bubba, maybe the point is to write simple games, and yes you learn OOP programming and it's easier to use than any other language especially for someone who doesn't really care about anything but writing *simple games*.

    on top of all this you obviously don't know much about game programming if you think a game has to look like real life to be worth making... learn some game theory. all games are based on mathematical models which can be implemented in ANY WAY.

    old atari games have persisted to today, just new skins and new looks. no game is bad because of its simplicity.

    and just because 90% of flash developers suck doesn't mean flash sucks for making games, what you see and what is possible are two different things. flash is fine especially when you create client side executables, it works just fine. maybe not on linux.

    but maybe you missed the part where the thread starter isn't very experienced, and even a simple game -comparable- to flash would take SO MUCH LONGER to make. the point is he wants to make games, not spend his life as a c++ programmer, that's what I got from him anyway.

    flash is perfectly ok, trust me, don't listen to the guy that doesn't know what he's talking about. unless you have a -specific- interest in learning c++, go to flash. it's a perfectly OOP oriented programming language capable of doing what ever you want. with limits at comparing to major industry games, but even those are more involved than your obviously looking for.

    you can learn all the c++ and graphics programming in the world, yet you can still be *clueless* about making games. TRUST me.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory

    there's a science to everything don't spout lies!

    flash doesn't require the IDE to create anything, you can write actionscript files which flash compiles, and make entire games from scratch, with a language that has MANY high level features FOR game programming.

    game programming is VERY fun, and I LOVE discovering formulas to describe the relationships between events, and to write algorithms are GREAT! Bubba's experience and opinion != everyones.
    Last edited by simpleid; 08-16-2007 at 12:51 PM.

  10. #25
    Super Moderator VirtualAce's Avatar
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    You are the one's talking about making a game but forgetting silly little things like oh...memory management.

    You might get away with that with other languages but eventually you will have to learn how to manage memory.

    Try to program these 'simple' classic games without doing memory management or that god awful thing called programming:

    • Asteroids
    • Space invaders
    • River raid


    flash is perfectly ok, trust me, don't listen to the guy that doesn't know what he's talking about. unless you have a -specific- interest in learning c++, go to flash. it's a perfectly OOP oriented programming language capable of doing what ever you want. with limits at comparing to major industry games, but even those are more involved than your obviously looking for.
    And yet strangely this is a C/C++ board and you are talking about flash and everything else except C/C++. I find that a bit odd. This is a game programming board as it relates to C/C++. Not VB, Java, HTML,Flash or anything you guys can cook up.

    If you want to use a different language to program a game that is your choice. If you want to talk about it here on this board then obviously you want to program in C/C++ Dummy me but I thought the answer to which language to use on a purely C/C++ board was sorta obvious. If you want to use a diff language then go to that board and talk about it.

    old atari games have persisted to today, just new skins and new looks. no game is bad because of its simplicity.
    Since you have no idea who I am or how I feel about games I suggest we probably ought not to head down that path. Simplicity does not mean ignoring fundamental concepts which most of this thread is encouraging.

    you can learn all the c++ and graphics programming in the world, yet you can still be *clueless* about making games. TRUST me.
    Why should we trust you? Being clueless about making games is all about avoiding those concepts that help you make the game....as in this whole thread.

    If you want to make a game..simple or not...learn to program. Do that first and when you can finally program in C/C++ then you can begin to make simple games. Until then I'd recommend diving into some C/C++ books and doing a lot of programming. Games are hard enough when you know C/C++ much less if you don't have a clue about it.
    Last edited by VirtualAce; 08-16-2007 at 02:28 PM.

  11. #26
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    If I were the OP I'd bail out of this thread and head over to gamedev.net to get a wider perspective. Bubba's special He was kidnapped by programmer vikings and forced to conquer and pillage through programs, which is why he has such an unforgiving view on such topics. gamedev.net forums will probably tell you the same things, but in a different way.

    In the end my opinion is that if you really want to program games, learn to do it right the first time. If you want to program in flash, seek out flash game programmers and ask them tips on how to do it correctly, then learn, the create games. I don't know if flash has much by the way of memory management but there are great flash games, some that rival even larger games by way of fun factor. Making a great game probably requires more creativity and intuition than pure programming skill, but if you have the idea, learn how to program in the language correctly.

    C++ isn't the only way, but bubba is right in that you have to learn what constitutes a good program in any language, because if it's badly programmed, no matter how great it is, who is going to play it?

  12. #27
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    What language should i use to make little games? like a language that is easy to make games for.
    Am I the only one who -actually- read this?

    Does this sound like a curious itch to understand the fundamentals of software development? NO.
    Even programmers should know what the -appropriate- response is... not -everyone- is like you or me.
    Fact: You don't need to know memory management to make a game. - Proof: Flash.
    Tell the kid the TRUTH! He can do it the easy way, just not to expect much of it!

    I'm just as stubborn, I'm just not ridiculously irrational about understanding the intentions of human beings.

    And just because I provide an easy answer, doesn't mean I don't respect or follow the 'hard path.'

    Don't making assumptions. Give them the honest truth and let him make the choice, you know damn well no one has to learn any deeper than they want. This person is obviously only a little curious, he doesn't want to be a damn assembly programmer, that much is apparent by his lack of communication in his initial post.


    Why do I get the feeling I'm the only sane person alive.

    When someone really cares about something, they elaborate, when they're only a little interested, they make one lined comment.
    Last edited by simpleid; 08-16-2007 at 03:52 PM.

  13. #28
    Super Moderator VirtualAce's Avatar
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    Bubba's special He was kidnapped by programmer vikings and forced to conquer and pillage through programs, which is why he has such an unforgiving view on such topics. gamedev.net forums will probably tell you the same things, but in a different way.
    ROFLMAO Hehe. If that wasn't so long I'd use it in my sig. Nice. Very nice.

    Yes I am unforgiving on topics like this because so many want the easy way out which means they have the wrong attitude from the word go. If you want to learn and are willing to work at it then I'm not such a bad fella to deal with. But always insisting on taking the easy road to avoid the hard stuff is one way to get me a bit um....testy.

    C/C++ is not the only language to program games in. However we are currently on a C/C++ board so perhaps going to other boards would be a much better option in this case.

    I don't know if gamedev will be more forgiving or less. It all depends on who answers the thread. Some of them over there are more hardcore than any of us here. We know this because we often get people who have been flamed or rejected over at gamedev for having attitudes similar to this and then try to come here and do the same. Normally we are on par with what gamedev says albeit we each say our piece a bit differently.

    If I were the OP I'd bail out of this thread and head over to gamedev.net to get a wider perspective.
    This is the best piece of advice in this thread. We have the C/C++ perspective here which is not the only perspective there is. But we have to maintain focus here or the board will degenerate into 'any language will do'.
    Last edited by VirtualAce; 08-17-2007 at 12:05 AM.

  14. #29
    int x = *((int *) NULL); Cactus_Hugger's Avatar
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    But we have to maintain focus here or the board will degenerate into 'any language will do'.
    ...well...
    I was working on compiling SDL myself (for performance purposes), but games were crashing. I wasn't getting much feedback, so I decided I'd try to debug one. Frozen Bubble, if you've ever played it. Well, I fired up gdb, told it to go, and gdb promptly told me "No executable file specified." After a couple misguided attempts, something made me open Frozen Bubble in vim. Something that I thought wouldn't work, until I saw this:
    # Yes it uses Perl, you non-believer :-).
    long time; /* know C? */
    Unprecedented performance: Nothing ever ran this slow before.
    Any sufficiently advanced bug is indistinguishable from a feature.
    Real Programmers confuse Halloween and Christmas, because dec 25 == oct 31.
    The best way to accelerate an IBM is at 9.8 m/s/s.
    recursion (re - cur' - zhun) n. 1. (see recursion)

  15. #30
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    probably used perl to clean up the .cpp file ;b

    j/k

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