i need a non .net 64bit windows compiler

This is a discussion on i need a non .net 64bit windows compiler within the C++ Programming forums, part of the General Programming Boards category; Originally Posted by pianorain So the coder learns your proposed API instead of another one. That's all fine and dandy ...

  1. #16
    Registered User learning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pianorain View Post
    So the coder learns your proposed API instead of another one. That's all fine and dandy until you realize two things:
    1. All non-trivial abstractions leak. In the end, to really be effective, the end user will have to know both your API and something about the API's that you're trying to wrap.
    2. During the creation of 'The One API,' some design choices must be made. These choices will influence what kinds of problems your API is designed to solve (or if you're being practical about it, the problems will influence the choices). So then later someone else decides that "Hey, wouldn't it be great if we had an API that did such-and-such instead of this terrible behavior in 'The One API'?" Then you end up with two or more API's. We might as well had not gone to the effort.
    I think the closest we'll ever come to something like that is compiling to a cross-platform bytecode and then letting a system-specific runtime either JIT it or precompile it. Wait...that's exactly what .Net lets you do.
    .net reminds me of a fully developed version of vb 6.0, where everything is wrapped in objects and the developer sees none of the apis; not to mention that windows is completely sealed so that anytime you get an automatic update your computer could go boom or get a trojan installed, or as happend to me when i refused the windows checking software, my printer functions were completely disabled (nothing illegal with my system, just didn't want to be checked by big brother), then i had to wipe the my system reinstall everything and allow all the windows auditing software so my system wasn't crippled.

    Sure Windows may be good for a while, but how would anyone know if and when it goes bad, there is no way of telling with closed source is there? not that i am necessarily saying that penguins and daemons are the way to go either (don't mention apples as they are also based on daemons); why isn't there a flavour of linux with birds that can actually fly that has been properly exorcised?

    btw don't believe everything you read regarding leaks, poor programming creates leaks, not abstractions; and there is no "one api" there are many that's why the abstraction is required so the higher level developer wouldn't be working with .net objects they would be working with higher than MS level objects. think of it in object terms rather than api terms.
    Last edited by learning; 05-14-2007 at 05:44 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zacs7 View Post
    Whats wrong with the GCC C++ compiler?

    And no IBM's compiler priced at $399 doesn't mean its good, Its priced at $399 for the buisness support it provides, and the support IBM offers. Also its got IBM's name on it, + $300
    is it ibm or intel or a combination of the two???
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    Quote Originally Posted by CornedBee View Post
    I'm not currently trying anything on the Win32 platform. My Linux compiler generates 64-bit code.

    You could see if there's a 64-bit MinGW somewhere. Quickly browsing the MinGW page shows that there are development snapshots available.
    is this what you have cornedbee?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC5uEe5OzNQ
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  4. #19
    Cat without Hat CornedBee's Avatar
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    Nah, I have enough trouble with dual screens without adding a 3d desktop to the mix.
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    lol
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    Last edited by learning; 05-14-2007 at 10:01 PM.
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  7. #22
    Cat without Hat CornedBee's Avatar
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    This has gone really off-topic. Do you have a question left?
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    not really, i am playing with widgets (non .net windows ie thread topic) at the moment which may be my new ide, i'm intrigued to see what pianorain says though...
    Last edited by learning; 05-15-2007 at 04:43 AM.
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by learning View Post
    .net reminds me of a fully developed version of vb 6.0, where everything is wrapped in objects and the developer sees none of the apis; not to mention that windows is completely sealed...snip

    btw don't believe everything you read regarding leaks, poor programming creates leaks, not abstractions; and there is no "one api" there are many that's why the abstraction is required so the higher level developer wouldn't be working with .net objects they would be working with higher than MS level objects. think of it in object terms rather than api terms.
    .Net != Windows or Microsoft. Consider Mono, a .Net runtime for a variety of other platforms. .Net attempts exactly what you propose: a common API sitting on top of various APIs provided by other platforms. If you choose to use a system-specific API instead of the abstraction, your code is no longer cross-platform, but .Net does not prevent you from doing so.

    Regarding abstractions, I'm more inclined to think that abstractions leak, while poor programming is the result of not recognizing a leaking abstraction. An abstraction inherits all of the points of failure and performance quibbles from the original concept while adding its own. That's why I'd better know a thing or two about C-strings if I'm working with C++'s string class.
    If I did your homework for you, then you might pass your class without learning how to write a program like this. Then you might graduate and get your degree without learning how to write a program like this. You might become a professional programmer without knowing how to write a program like this. Someday you might work on a project with me without knowing how to write a program like this. Then I would have to do you serious bodily harm. - Jack Klein

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    i tried dialogblocks, its not a complete ide, just a rad cross platform dialog maker. i didn't investigate widgets completely, however, initially at least it seems that it isn't a complete solution for complete applications yet.

    how is .net with performance? does it optimise to chipset level? if i compare an unmanaged c++ app to the same app in .net which app wins? that huge runtime library annoys every part of me, i don't want to install it on my pc ever if i can avoid it.

    oh and you pianorain you forgot to discuss this :chuckle: "sure Windows may be good for a while, but how would anyone know if and when it goes bad, there is no way of telling with closed source is there? not that i am necessarily saying that penguins and daemons are the way to go either (don't mention apples as they are also based on daemons); why isn't there a flavour of linux with birds that can actually fly that has been properly exorcised?"
    Last edited by learning; 05-15-2007 at 10:11 AM.
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    well i've had vista for a day; microsoft is dying isn't it. when i try gentoo, i won't go back will i?
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    Last edited by learning; 05-17-2007 at 08:19 AM.
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  13. #28
    Woof, woof! zacs7's Avatar
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    This has gone way beyond the topic, stay on track or start a new topic... In the RIGHT forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by learning View Post
    how is .net with performance? does it optimise to chipset level? if i compare an unmanaged c++ app to the same app in .net which app wins?

    oh and you pianorain you forgot to discuss this :chuckle: "sure Windows may be good for a while, but how would anyone know if and when it goes bad, there is no way of telling with closed source is there? not that i am necessarily saying that penguins and daemons are the way to go either (don't mention apples as they are also based on daemons); why isn't there a flavour of linux with birds that can actually fly that has been properly exorcised?"
    The performance of using a runtime varies, but it can never be better than a well-written app compiled for a specific machine. The JIT compiler can't optimize as well as a normal compiler since it's trying to compile very quickly and only looks at bits of the code at a time. 'Well-written' is an important part there, since the automatic memory management of the runtime can increase the performance of a .Net application when compared to a unmanaged app. However, .Net was not designed to be a performance beast. Its selling point is compatibility.

    I didn't get into OS's because that's beyond the scope of runtimes. You could have a runtime for any OS.

    Perhaps closer to the topic, did you try turning off the CLR support? This should let you generate native apps instead of .Net apps.
    If I did your homework for you, then you might pass your class without learning how to write a program like this. Then you might graduate and get your degree without learning how to write a program like this. You might become a professional programmer without knowing how to write a program like this. Someday you might work on a project with me without knowing how to write a program like this. Then I would have to do you serious bodily harm. - Jack Klein

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    semi-colon generator ChaosEngine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pianorain View Post
    The performance of using a runtime varies, but it can never be better than a well-written app compiled for a specific machine. The JIT compiler can't optimize as well as a normal compiler since it's trying to compile very quickly and only looks at bits of the code at a time.
    That's not necessarily true. A JIT can actually out-perform a native app. A good JIT can actually analyse the code paths at run-time and optimise "on the fly".
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