Who Learns How?

**XSquared** · 10-30-2003

I've just picked up everything as I go. I'm hoping to get into a double major with Computer Science and Math next year at university though. Unfortunately, it seems like most CS classes have switched to Java.

**JaWiB** · 10-30-2003

Really? They switched to java? Well thats dumb, why would they do that? (Sorry I'm a little biased since the only real language I know is C++

)

**XSquared** · 10-30-2003

I know that at the University of Western Ontario, which is one place I'm considering, you're put into the Java program by default, but I think it is still possible to get into C++ courses instead.

**jverkoey** · 10-30-2003

bleaha, i hate the fact that they're getting rid of C++, i DON'T understand that in any way. Why would you go and stop teaching one of the most powerful languages just to switch over to a much less powerful scripted language? it doesn't make sense at all. if the industry is "turning to java", then i'd hate to see what the future games look like...*brain hurts thinking of console games made in java* all java is really good for is web stuff, and you can do most of that with C++ anyways.

Also, java doesn't support directx/opengl/win32 as well as c++ does.........

i just don't like it, that's why i'm starting teaching C++ at my school, cuz our java class plain SUCKS

**axon** · 10-30-2003

jverkoey, XSquared, and Jawib; again the language in which computer science is taught is not important at the university level. The professors are not there to teach you syntax (well maybe an intro course) of that language. So the actual language, really doesn't matter much as to what the school wants to accomplish when "educating" you. I'll stop at that as this was said before in many threads...

as for your arguments about high school or community teachers I can't say much, as I never took a CS course in hs and never been to a community college except for the summer session. In high school I wanted to be an architect

haha...but around sophmore year I taught myself HTML and javascript, by the end of my senior year I started picking up c++ and fell "in love" with programming...thank goodness

but who wants to read about my history...

EDIT:: check this thread out, as the things there partain to our discussion here.

**UnclePunker** · 10-31-2003

Well it seems like most of you are self taught then, I would love to get into a course of structured learning, probably computer science but at the moment that isn't possible with a job, a wife, and a baby on the way I don't reckon I am gonna have much time on my hands, I will just keep teaching myself and getting help from you lot (hopefully won't wear out MY welcome). I wouldn't say I know loads about programming and I know I have so much to learn, but that's the fun part isn't it, it does give me hope that alot of you people who I respect and you obviously know alot are self taught. Cheers people.

**major_small** · 10-31-2003

Originally posted by axon
how many of you can come up with efficient algorythims from mathematical induction?

does that count if I came up with a more efficient algorithm than my professor because I self-taught the entire summer before classes?

does it count if i knew more about C++ than her?

anyway, yeah, why are they changing to Java? I visited my high school not too long ago and took a look at their Java AP class which replaced C++ 1+2 classes... our teacher had a hard time getting our class to understand functions, and they're changing it to CSAP? from what I've heard nobody in that class knows what's going on... I even had my teacher come up to me and say my class looked like Java code...

**twm** · 10-31-2003

>How can you even say that?! Some of my professors are simply brilliant
Note that I said most, not all. Yea, there are some amazing teachers out there, but the majority know less than many of this forum's regular members.

**joshdick** · 10-31-2003

Originally posted by twm
>How can you even say that?! Some of my professors are simply brilliant
Note that I said most, not all. Yea, there are some amazing teachers out there, but the majority know less than many of this forum's regular members.

If you mean that most CS professors know less about the finer points of a language like C++ than our regular board members, I'd be inclined to agree. There are a few reasons why CS professors don't bother memorizing such things and all of them have to do with the fact that they're smarter than us (or at least me). First, they've been in the CS scene for a while; therefore, they've worked with many languages, so it's impossible to keep them all straight. Second, computer science is about concepts, not any language, so professors know the abstract thoughts rather than the specific points of any language. Third, they're professors, not professional coders, so they don't have to know the fine points of a language because they don't code a lot in one language.

If you mean, however, that most CS professors know less about the concepts of CS than us, I think you're really wrong. CS is about a whole lot more than programming. The ACM has identified nine core areas of computer science, and only one area is programming languages. CS professors have at the very least a master's degree in the broad area of CS. Although, they may not know every little thing about C++ off the top of their head, they know a heck of a lot about CS.

**major_small** · 10-31-2003

Originally posted by joshdick
CS is about a whole lot more than programming. The ACM has identified nine core areas of computer science, and only one area is programming languages.

tell that to the college board... what they call their CS AP test is nothing more than an advanced C++ test... and now it's just a Java test... no theory, all code...

**joshdick** · 10-31-2003

Originally posted by major_small
tell that to the college board... what they call their CS AP test is nothing more than an advanced C++ test... and now it's just a Java test... no theory, all code...

Yeah, I agree entirely. The decision to switch to Java and focus so much on coding is not CS, it's programming.

**twm** · 10-31-2003

>Third, they're professors, not professional coders, so they don't have to know the fine points of a language
You mean fine points like 'void main' and 'fflush(stdin)'? I don't know about you, but I'd want somebody teaching me to be quite fluent in the subject. Concepts are all well and good in CS theory classes and beginner courses, but when you're being taught C or C++, the fine points are very important. Granted, a professor has no need to understand obscure areas of the language, but correct general usage should be a priority.

>they've worked with many languages, so it's impossible to keep them all straight
I can understand that, but I haven't ever heard of a programming class that teaches more than one language simultaneously. If they're so smart, why can't they switch gears when required? I find myself mixing syntax in my code all the time, but that's because I interleave the use of seven or eight different languages every day. I have no doubt I could keep things straight if I were using or teaching just a single language.

>If you mean, however, that most CS professors know less about the concepts of CS than us, I think you're really wrong.
Nope, that's not what I meant. Sorry if it sounded that way.

My point was completely about correct C/C++...since the original question was concerning learning C++, not Computer Science in general.

**EvBladeRunnervE** · 10-31-2003

I think that personal self study is good, but I also believe formal education is good. They are useful for different things, and one complements the other. If one has the ability to teach themselves well, that will carry through onto formal education, going the extra mile in all those advanced math and algorithm courses. Likewise, formal education atleast at the college level , pretty much requires that one learn how to teach themselves alot of stuff, as there is only so much that can be covered in a lecture, and most proffesors expect their students to actually read and learn the book material and more to get "A" grades. The problem outlines by few about self-learning is the lack of Computer Science thought. One can learn how to program well syntax wise, but how many people here that are self learners can formulate fast, comprehensive algorithms for such tasks like protein folding and genetical analysis where the difference in calculation time between a mediocre algorithm and a great algorithm is in the range of hours,days, even months(note: going to college doesnt necesary guarantee this ability either, it just helps one prepare for it better than most people by themselves can). A few prominent game programmers(well only one that i can think of right now: Carmack), were totally selftaught in both the mathematical aspects as well as the programming aspects, but a majority of game development studios are now demanding CS bachelor degrees as a requirement of hiring(i.e. the company that made UT2003;Blizzard;etc.).

so in my mind, the best programmer would be one who has the character traits to push hard and learn alot themselves in the absence of good classes(jverkoey and Silvercord for example), but also the people who have the opportunity to be taught the theory and thought processes of CS by competent college professors(Axon,etc.).

**Speedy5** · 10-31-2003

I picked up a C++ book (1003 pages) and read it in two days over the summer 2 years ago. On the third day I was making stellar apps with templates and OOP and $$$$.

Of course, I knew java before and a few other programming languages.

**confuted** · 10-31-2003

Entirely self-taught through books, tutorials, these boards, MSDN, compiler documentation, and Google

Thread: Who Learns How?

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