Who Learns How?

This is a discussion on Who Learns How? within the C++ Programming forums, part of the General Programming Boards category; I've just picked up everything as I go. I'm hoping to get into a double major with Computer Science and ...

  1. #16
    C++ Developer XSquared's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    2,718
    I've just picked up everything as I go. I'm hoping to get into a double major with Computer Science and Math next year at university though. Unfortunately, it seems like most CS classes have switched to Java.
    Naturally I didn't feel inspired enough to read all the links for you, since I already slaved away for long hours under a blistering sun pressing the search button after typing four whole words! - Quzah

    You. Fetch me my copy of the Wall Street Journal. You two, fight to the death - Stewie

  2. #17
    carry on JaWiB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    1,972
    Really? They switched to java? Well thats dumb, why would they do that? (Sorry I'm a little biased since the only real language I know is C++ )
    "Think not but that I know these things; or think
    I know them not: not therefore am I short
    Of knowing what I ought."
    -John Milton, Paradise Regained (1671)

    "Work hard and it might happen."
    -XSquared

  3. #18
    C++ Developer XSquared's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    2,718
    I know that at the University of Western Ontario, which is one place I'm considering, you're put into the Java program by default, but I think it is still possible to get into C++ courses instead.
    Naturally I didn't feel inspired enough to read all the links for you, since I already slaved away for long hours under a blistering sun pressing the search button after typing four whole words! - Quzah

    You. Fetch me my copy of the Wall Street Journal. You two, fight to the death - Stewie

  4. #19
    Software Developer jverkoey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    University of Waterloo
    Posts
    1,903
    bleaha, i hate the fact that they're getting rid of C++, i DON'T understand that in any way. Why would you go and stop teaching one of the most powerful languages just to switch over to a much less powerful scripted language? it doesn't make sense at all. if the industry is "turning to java", then i'd hate to see what the future games look like...*brain hurts thinking of console games made in java* all java is really good for is web stuff, and you can do most of that with C++ anyways.

    Also, java doesn't support directx/opengl/win32 as well as c++ does.........

    i just don't like it, that's why i'm starting teaching C++ at my school, cuz our java class plain SUCKS

  5. #20
    Registered User axon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Mt. Prospect, IL
    Posts
    2,572
    jverkoey, XSquared, and Jawib; again the language in which computer science is taught is not important at the university level. The professors are not there to teach you syntax (well maybe an intro course) of that language. So the actual language, really doesn't matter much as to what the school wants to accomplish when "educating" you. I'll stop at that as this was said before in many threads...

    as for your arguments about high school or community teachers I can't say much, as I never took a CS course in hs and never been to a community college except for the summer session. In high school I wanted to be an architect haha...but around sophmore year I taught myself HTML and javascript, by the end of my senior year I started picking up c++ and fell "in love" with programming...thank goodness but who wants to read about my history...

    EDIT:: check this thread out, as the things there partain to our discussion here.
    Last edited by axon; 10-30-2003 at 09:59 PM.

    some entropy with that sink? entropysink.com

    there are two cardinal sins from which all others spring: Impatience and Laziness. - franz kafka

  6. #21
    ResurgentBarbecue UnclePunker's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    128
    Well it seems like most of you are self taught then, I would love to get into a course of structured learning, probably computer science but at the moment that isn't possible with a job, a wife, and a baby on the way I don't reckon I am gonna have much time on my hands, I will just keep teaching myself and getting help from you lot (hopefully won't wear out MY welcome). I wouldn't say I know loads about programming and I know I have so much to learn, but that's the fun part isn't it, it does give me hope that alot of you people who I respect and you obviously know alot are self taught. Cheers people.
    Compiler == Visual C++ 6.0
    "Come Out Fighting."

  7. #22
    Registered User major_small's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    2,787
    Originally posted by axon
    how many of you can come up with efficient algorythims from mathematical induction?
    does that count if I came up with a more efficient algorithm than my professor because I self-taught the entire summer before classes?

    does it count if i knew more about C++ than her?


    anyway, yeah, why are they changing to Java? I visited my high school not too long ago and took a look at their Java AP class which replaced C++ 1+2 classes... our teacher had a hard time getting our class to understand functions, and they're changing it to CSAP? from what I've heard nobody in that class knows what's going on... I even had my teacher come up to me and say my class looked like Java code...
    Last edited by major_small; 10-31-2003 at 06:44 AM.
    Join is in our Unofficial Cprog IRC channel
    Server: irc.phoenixradio.org
    Channel: #Tech


    Team Cprog Folding@Home: Team #43476
    Download it Here
    Detailed Stats Here
    More Detailed Stats
    52 Members so far, are YOU a member?
    Current team score: 1223226 (ranked 374 of 45152)

    The CBoard team is doing better than 99.16% of the other teams
    Top 5 Members: Xterria(518175), pianorain(118517), Bennet(64957), JaWiB(55610), alphaoide(44374)

    Last Updated on: Wed, 30 Aug, 2006 @ 2:30 PM EDT

  8. #23
    twm
    twm is offline
    root
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    232
    >How can you even say that?! Some of my professors are simply brilliant
    Note that I said most, not all. Yea, there are some amazing teachers out there, but the majority know less than many of this forum's regular members.
    The information given in this message is known to work on FreeBSD 4.8 STABLE.
    *The above statement is false if I was too lazy to test it.*
    Please take note that I am not a technical writer, nor do I care to become one.
    If someone finds a mistake, gleaming error or typo, do me a favor...bite me.
    Don't assume that I'm ever entirely serious or entirely joking.

  9. #24
    Senior Member joshdick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Phildelphia, PA
    Posts
    1,146
    Originally posted by twm
    >How can you even say that?! Some of my professors are simply brilliant
    Note that I said most, not all. Yea, there are some amazing teachers out there, but the majority know less than many of this forum's regular members.
    If you mean that most CS professors know less about the finer points of a language like C++ than our regular board members, I'd be inclined to agree. There are a few reasons why CS professors don't bother memorizing such things and all of them have to do with the fact that they're smarter than us (or at least me). First, they've been in the CS scene for a while; therefore, they've worked with many languages, so it's impossible to keep them all straight. Second, computer science is about concepts, not any language, so professors know the abstract thoughts rather than the specific points of any language. Third, they're professors, not professional coders, so they don't have to know the fine points of a language because they don't code a lot in one language.

    If you mean, however, that most CS professors know less about the concepts of CS than us, I think you're really wrong. CS is about a whole lot more than programming. The ACM has identified nine core areas of computer science, and only one area is programming languages. CS professors have at the very least a master's degree in the broad area of CS. Although, they may not know every little thing about C++ off the top of their head, they know a heck of a lot about CS.
    FAQ

    "The computer programmer is a creator of universes for which he alone is responsible. Universes of virtually unlimited complexity can be created in the form of computer programs." -- Joseph Weizenbaum.

    "If you cannot grok the overall structure of a program while taking a shower, you are not ready to code it." -- Richard Pattis.

  10. #25
    Registered User major_small's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    2,787
    Originally posted by joshdick
    CS is about a whole lot more than programming. The ACM has identified nine core areas of computer science, and only one area is programming languages.
    tell that to the college board... what they call their CS AP test is nothing more than an advanced C++ test... and now it's just a Java test... no theory, all code...
    Join is in our Unofficial Cprog IRC channel
    Server: irc.phoenixradio.org
    Channel: #Tech


    Team Cprog Folding@Home: Team #43476
    Download it Here
    Detailed Stats Here
    More Detailed Stats
    52 Members so far, are YOU a member?
    Current team score: 1223226 (ranked 374 of 45152)

    The CBoard team is doing better than 99.16% of the other teams
    Top 5 Members: Xterria(518175), pianorain(118517), Bennet(64957), JaWiB(55610), alphaoide(44374)

    Last Updated on: Wed, 30 Aug, 2006 @ 2:30 PM EDT

  11. #26
    Senior Member joshdick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Phildelphia, PA
    Posts
    1,146
    Originally posted by major_small
    tell that to the college board... what they call their CS AP test is nothing more than an advanced C++ test... and now it's just a Java test... no theory, all code...
    Yeah, I agree entirely. The decision to switch to Java and focus so much on coding is not CS, it's programming.
    FAQ

    "The computer programmer is a creator of universes for which he alone is responsible. Universes of virtually unlimited complexity can be created in the form of computer programs." -- Joseph Weizenbaum.

    "If you cannot grok the overall structure of a program while taking a shower, you are not ready to code it." -- Richard Pattis.

  12. #27
    twm
    twm is offline
    root
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    232
    >Third, they're professors, not professional coders, so they don't have to know the fine points of a language
    You mean fine points like 'void main' and 'fflush(stdin)'? I don't know about you, but I'd want somebody teaching me to be quite fluent in the subject. Concepts are all well and good in CS theory classes and beginner courses, but when you're being taught C or C++, the fine points are very important. Granted, a professor has no need to understand obscure areas of the language, but correct general usage should be a priority.

    >they've worked with many languages, so it's impossible to keep them all straight
    I can understand that, but I haven't ever heard of a programming class that teaches more than one language simultaneously. If they're so smart, why can't they switch gears when required? I find myself mixing syntax in my code all the time, but that's because I interleave the use of seven or eight different languages every day. I have no doubt I could keep things straight if I were using or teaching just a single language.

    >If you mean, however, that most CS professors know less about the concepts of CS than us, I think you're really wrong.
    Nope, that's not what I meant. Sorry if it sounded that way. My point was completely about correct C/C++...since the original question was concerning learning C++, not Computer Science in general.
    The information given in this message is known to work on FreeBSD 4.8 STABLE.
    *The above statement is false if I was too lazy to test it.*
    Please take note that I am not a technical writer, nor do I care to become one.
    If someone finds a mistake, gleaming error or typo, do me a favor...bite me.
    Don't assume that I'm ever entirely serious or entirely joking.

  13. #28
    'AlHamdulillah
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    790
    I think that personal self study is good, but I also believe formal education is good. They are useful for different things, and one complements the other. If one has the ability to teach themselves well, that will carry through onto formal education, going the extra mile in all those advanced math and algorithm courses. Likewise, formal education atleast at the college level , pretty much requires that one learn how to teach themselves alot of stuff, as there is only so much that can be covered in a lecture, and most proffesors expect their students to actually read and learn the book material and more to get "A" grades. The problem outlines by few about self-learning is the lack of Computer Science thought. One can learn how to program well syntax wise, but how many people here that are self learners can formulate fast, comprehensive algorithms for such tasks like protein folding and genetical analysis where the difference in calculation time between a mediocre algorithm and a great algorithm is in the range of hours,days, even months(note: going to college doesnt necesary guarantee this ability either, it just helps one prepare for it better than most people by themselves can). A few prominent game programmers(well only one that i can think of right now: Carmack), were totally selftaught in both the mathematical aspects as well as the programming aspects, but a majority of game development studios are now demanding CS bachelor degrees as a requirement of hiring(i.e. the company that made UT2003;Blizzard;etc.).

    so in my mind, the best programmer would be one who has the character traits to push hard and learn alot themselves in the absence of good classes(jverkoey and Silvercord for example), but also the people who have the opportunity to be taught the theory and thought processes of CS by competent college professors(Axon,etc.).

  14. #29
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    648
    I picked up a C++ book (1003 pages) and read it in two days over the summer 2 years ago. On the third day I was making stellar apps with templates and OOP and $$$$.

    Of course, I knew java before and a few other programming languages.

  15. #30
    Pursuing knowledge confuted's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Posts
    1,916
    Entirely self-taught through books, tutorials, these boards, MSDN, compiler documentation, and Google
    Away.

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Popular pages Recent additions subscribe to a feed

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21