Another esbo thread hijack trying to start a flame war

This is a discussion on Another esbo thread hijack trying to start a flame war within the C++ Programming forums, part of the General Programming Boards category; also: http://fededlee.ytmnd.com/...

  1. #61
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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by m37h0d View Post
    that's aburd. how would you learn anything without documentation? blindly stabbing away in the dark?
    You need to lean the syntax of the commands, but that's not quite the same
    as writing good programs.

  3. #63
    C++ Witch laserlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by esbo
    What you don't realise, is that I know how to program end of story.
    Having looked at your code, it is clear to me that you know how to program, but you do not know how to program well, or simply refuse to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by esbo
    I don't need to learn about OOP
    That might be true. On the other hand, learning a breadth of techniques (i.e., not just OOP either; other paradigms like functional programming should be covered as well) helps you to deepen your knowledge of programming.

    Quote Originally Posted by esbo
    I mean it is not as if writing good maintainable programs is difficult in the first place.
    Your own programs lack those qualities, so you are merely saying that "it is not as if writing programs that I find good and maintainable is difficult in the first place".

    Quote Originally Posted by esbo
    Basiclally if you need to be taught how to program, you are probably not suited to programming.
    Since you need to be taught how to program, you are probably not suited to programming

    Quote Originally Posted by esbo
    Prehaps the irony of the whole thing is that I would bet you a pound to a penny that my (editor) program, written in C, employed more object oriented techinques than the one which was being written in 'object orientated' C++.
    Considering the tight coupling due to your overuse of global variables, you have lost the bet.

    Quote Originally Posted by esbo
    You need to lean the syntax of the commands, but that's not quite the same
    as writing good programs.
    Precisely.
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by esbo View Post
    What you don't realise, is that I know how to program end of story.
    Except it's not. Some people are better programmers than others; they write better programs. For example, there are programming contests, and these contests have winners, suggesting that the winning programs are better than the loser programs.

    I don't need to learn about OOP because I already know how to write good programs.
    Do you? By what measure are your programs good? Can you justify your designs? Not likely since you aren't aware of alternatives. Then how can you be sure that your design is the best?

    If you knew alternative ways to look at programing challenges, you would be a better programmer. OOP is one of those ways.

    I mean it is not as if writing good maintainable programs is difficult in the first place.
    The amount of unmaintainable programs out there suggest otherwise. Reportedly, the lack of modularity of older programs is one of the things that makes it hard to maintain, and one of the things that OOP seeks to fix.

    Afterall if you struggle with a book on C good help you when you pick up a book on OOP.
    OOP is not harder that C. It is easier in many ways.

    After all programming is just followig simple rules, but if mess the rules up you will end up with a bad program
    whatever language you use.
    Except that you always mess up. I've never had a program that compiled and worked correctly the first time. Never.

    Furthermore almost always there is more than one way to do any nontrivial task. If you do not realize the options, then your chances of doing things in the most effective way possible is slim. Knowing different programming paradigms helps see challenges in different lights, giving you multiple ways to solve the same problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by esbo View Post
    You need to lean the syntax of the commands, but that's not quite the same as writing good programs.
    No it's not. Learning syntax is easy. Learning an applying good design principles is trickier, especially because the compiler doesn't tell you when you picked the wrong one. Everything still works, but you've made it harder on yourself and others.


    In summary learning multiple programming paradigms gives you more ways to analyze a problem, to come up with what is hopefully the best designed solution. Programs with better analysis of the problem and more attentively designed solution tend to be better programs.
    It is too clear and so it is hard to see.
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    He could have cooked his rice much sooner.

  5. #65
    Algorithm Dissector iMalc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by esbo View Post
    What you don't realise, is that I know how to program end of story.
    I don't need to learn about OOP because I already know how to write good programs.
    I don't need mumbo jumbo, I can get on and write programs without that.
    I mean it is not as if writing good maintainable programs is difficult in the first place.

    Afterall if you struggle with a book on C good help you when you pick up a book on OOP.
    Basiclally if you need to be taught how to program, you are probably not suited to programming.
    If push comes to shove I'd agree that being self-taught produces the best programmers. But that'd be my ego talking, since I'm also self taught.

    You seem like you're rather good at convincing yourself. You really only came here to convince yourself you know all you need to. You don't have to learn OOP or C++ properly, because fortunately probably none of us will ever have you working alongside us in the real world.
    Sure, writing good maintainable programs isn't hard. Good, large, extensible, maintainable, reliable and re-usable programs is what you can't really do without OOP. Or to be more general, OOT. (T = technology, which includes Analysis and Design) Probably not something you're particularly familiar with. Perhaps the term "Hocus Pocus" might be putting it more in your own terms.

    I've always wondered what happens with people who share your attitude to programming. I'm guessing they either pick another profession, or they eventually realise their mistake, or they end up being a regular character in theDailyWTF stories.
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  6. #66
    CSharpener vart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iMalc View Post
    I've always wondered what happens with people who share your attitude to programming. I'm guessing they either pick another profession, or they eventually realise their mistake, or they end up being a regular character in theDailyWTF stories.
    Or they drop programming and start working as product managers
    The first 90% of a project takes 90% of the time,
    the last 10% takes the other 90% of the time.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by esbo View Post
    You need to lean the syntax of the commands, but that's not quite the same
    as writing good programs.
    yes, but that's not what you said. you didn't say 'if you need to be taught how to program well...'; you said 'if you need to be taught how to program'. you said one thing but meant another.

    apparently there is a bug in your statement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by m37h0d View Post
    yes, but that's not what you said. you didn't say 'if you need to be taught how to program well...'; you said 'if you need to be taught how to program'. you said one thing but meant another.

    apparently there is a bug in your statement.
    I think the bug is that esbo doesn't realize that there is a distinction.
    It is too clear and so it is hard to see.
    A dunce once searched for fire with a lighted lantern.
    Had he known what fire was,
    He could have cooked his rice much sooner.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by iMalc View Post
    Good, large, extensible, maintainable, reliable and re-usable programs is what you can't really do without OOP. Or to be more general, OOT. (T = technology, which includes Analysis and Design)
    I think that is very similar to what I said about 50 posts ago, and esbo decided that it was quite possible to do in C - not sure what esbo's actual exposure to the commercial side of programming is, but I expect it's not one of dealing with projects that are large than a few dozen files of a few hundred to thousand lines each, if any.

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  10. #70
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whiteflags View Post
    >> Presenting facts or being biased is one thing, but being rude is another. I should report you and your post

    A report emails the entire moderating team. Your feelings frankly aren't a reason to use it. I only filed one report in the three years I've been here and that was because someone was rather immaturely talking about penises and vaginas, and apparently trying to sell something. That's the type of crap you report.
    Not my feelings. But one of the rules on the web is to be respectful towards other members, yes? Especially when you are right out rude and typing rude comments.
    I know I have violated this rule a couple of times, but I have been in error of judgement, and have reflected upon this and try no to do so anymore.
    (You probably know how poorly esbo is liked around here; I've even been right out ride on a couple of occasions, but this time I am and will not be rude towards esbo because it serves no purpose and is a violation of the rules.)

    Quote Originally Posted by King Mir View Post
    OOP is not harder that C. It is easier in many ways.
    It's also subjective, yes? In C, it is much harder to understand the concepts and making it work right, but in OOP, it can be hard to find a good design.
    But I do agree with you, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  11. #71
    Captain Crash brewbuck's Avatar
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    esbo reminds me of those pseudoscientists who investigate cold fusion or perpetual motion. Completely non-dangerous, sometimes obnoxious, sometimes hilarious.

    He's harmless and occassionally provides comic relief. I don't know why we have a huge thread about this.
    Code:
    //try
    //{
    	if (a) do { f( b); } while(1);
    	else   do { f(!b); } while(1);
    //}

  12. #72
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    Ah yes, it is always fun to see people jump on esbo, trying to dig or correct, and whatever arguments are put forward, esbo always dismisses them in some way or another! Quite funny!
    Brightens the day, with threads like these
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  13. #73
    C++ Witch laserlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brewbuck
    I don't know why we have a huge thread about this.
    Because Salem (I think) split the thread, anticipating a flame war, but neglected to close the thread, thus allowing the flame war to happen instead of fading out to answers to behzad_shabani's question.

    As such, I will rectify the situation, even though it is too late. *thread closed*
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