Certification in c. c++

This is a discussion on Certification in c. c++ within the C++ Programming forums, part of the General Programming Boards category; Originally Posted by bling unless of course you lose the opportunity when they ask to see it. Still not a ...

  1. #16
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bling View Post
    unless of course you lose the opportunity when they ask to see it.
    Still not a downside, because you wouldnt get that far without the lie, therefor there is no loss.

    Given that you may lie or tell the truth, and other applicants may do the same. The 'game' consists of three rounds, initial selection, background check and the interview. The employer may check or not check after a winner is selected, but lets assume that once the 'winner' is chosen further checkign will not be performed unless the 'winner' is not performign their job, in which case checking will only confirm what teh employe already knows, that teh winner, regardless of whether they pass teh check or not is not performing. i.e. termination.

    From the point fo view of the player, the object of the first stage (selection) is to get to the third stage (interview). Since the HR typically limits the number of winners at this stage (i.e. they weed out the less qualified candidates prior to doign any checking), the players must compete with one another to win one of these spots. The losers get nothing. So assuming an average player. If the average player tells the truth, and all other players tell teh truth, they have a 50% chance fo being chosen for round 2. If the player choses to lie and the other players tell teh truth they have a 100% chance of being chosen, if they tell the truth and all other players lie then they have 0% chance of beign chosen. Therefor there is good reason to lie, and no reason to tell the truth at this stage.

    The only thing that can guarantee honesty in the players is if every HR checks every resume before the selection process, or in the least continues checking resumes until all apparently qualified candidates have been checked. Given that people are unlikely to lie and make themselves appear less qualified.

    Now this presents itself as another game. HR's compete with one another over employees, i.e. the HR wins by selecting valid players before they are selected by other HR's. It takes longer to check a candidate than to not check a candidate. Therefor checkign the candidate, while reducing the risk of gettign an unqualified applicant, increases the risk that the applicant will be hired by another company before the check is finished.

    So you really have a 6 person game. Crystal, Leroy, Rupert and Dick are the players and Alice and Bob are the HR's.

    Crystal and Leroy are equally qualified. 1.0 true resume value.
    Dick and Rupert are unqualified. 0.0 true resume value.
    Crystal and Rupert tell the truth. +0.0 apparent resume value
    Leroy and Dick lie. +1.0 apparent resume value
    Crystal - Resume value 1.0
    Leroy - Resume value 1.0 apparent resume value 2.0
    Dick - Resume value 0.0 apparent resume value 1.0
    Rupert - Resume value 0.0

    Alice does not check.
    Bob does check.

    The interviews take 1 day per person and the check takes 1 day to complete before an interview can be made. The job is offered or not as part of the interview. Assume both jobs are equal and a candidate will accept the first offer made to them.

    Both Alice and Bob dismiss Rupert out of hand as his resume is unqualified.

    Day 1-
    Alice offers Leroy a job as he appears competant in the interview. (apparent resume value 2.0, backed by true value of 1.0)
    Bob checks Leroy's resume (apparent resume value 2.0) and finds he lied (1.0).

    Day 2-
    Bob cannot interview Leroy(1.0) so he checks crystal/dick.
    Alice randomly interviews either Crystal or Dick (1.0/1.0). She offers Alice a job, but not Dick. she gains 0.5 from Crystal and 0.0 from dick (half their existing true value

    Day 3-
    Bob Interviews Crystal if she was nto chosen on day 2 and if she choses his interview first. He gains 0.25 as half of her remaining true value.
    Alice Interviews Crystal/Dick, gaining half of crystals remaining value and half of dicks for 0.25.

    So Alice gained 1.75 qualified employees while Bob gained only 0.25

    Therefor, for the HR, it is 7 time more effective to NOT check resumes than it is to check them, assuming the interview will show which candidates are really qualified.
    It is completely irrelevant whether the player gets caught because the interview would already have landed the liar a job from a non-checker before it has a chance to cost him a job from the checker.

    The actual scores depend on the actual values of interview time, check time, and the efficiency of the interview to select candidates. You could expand it to include a range of interview efficencies, and also compensate for on the job effectiveness and the effects of some players lying more than others and for the efficiency of the check process itself (job performance efficiency versus verifiable 'qualification').
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

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    wow, thanks for the very long and detailed response.

    (...edits resume to put every certification known to man on it...)

    anyways, back on topic, when i was job searching i worked with many recruiters. my experience is very strong on .NET on the desktop, with no web experience. i asked them whether it was worthwhile for me to get a certificate in web development to prove that i could do it. the recruiter said it won't really help me much, because experience is king.

  3. #18
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Now looking at it from teh perspective of the players, The Leroy's have a 100% chance of getting hired before the Crystals, who then only get hired if there are fewer Leroys than available jobs. Therefor for a qualified candidate there is no payoff for NOT lying, while for an unqualified candidate there is no payoff whether they lie or not. Hence, it is is the best interest of an individual candidate to lie regardless of their qualifications and hope teh interview shows that they are in fact qualified.

    So, what does this all have to do with the OP, certifications may or may nto help, btu they certainly do not hurt.
    Last edited by abachler; 11-26-2008 at 12:24 PM.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

  4. #19
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    abachler: do you play poker much?

    That was one very long hypothetical post...
    I'm thinking that lying about your degree level (Masters instead of Bachelors, or Bachelors instead of Associates...) might be safe, but lying about skills that you don't have would be easy to spot during an interview.
    "I am probably the laziest programmer on the planet, a fact with which anyone who has ever seen my code will agree." - esbo, 11/15/2008

    "the internet is a scary place to be thats why i dont use it much." - billet, 03/17/2010

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    Quote Originally Posted by cpjust View Post
    I'm thinking that lying about your degree level (Masters instead of Bachelors, or Bachelors instead of Associates...) might be safe, but lying about skills that you don't have would be easy to spot during an interview.
    my current position had a job offer conditional of me providing proof of graduation.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by bling View Post
    my current position had a job offer conditional of me providing proof of graduation.
    What would they consider proof?
    Anyone could easily go into Photoshop and print out any degree they want. The only real proof that they could trust would be to call the school and ask, and most schools probably wouldn't give out that information to just anyone.
    "I am probably the laziest programmer on the planet, a fact with which anyone who has ever seen my code will agree." - esbo, 11/15/2008

    "the internet is a scary place to be thats why i dont use it much." - billet, 03/17/2010

  7. #22
    and the Hat of Guessing tabstop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpjust View Post
    What would they consider proof?
    Anyone could easily go into Photoshop and print out any degree they want. The only real proof that they could trust would be to call the school and ask, and most schools probably wouldn't give out that information to just anyone.
    You might be surprised -- that's almost the only exception written into FERPA (here in the US) is that we can provide information to potential/current employers.

  8. #23
    chococoder
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpjust View Post
    What would they consider proof?
    Anyone could easily go into Photoshop and print out any degree they want. The only real proof that they could trust would be to call the school and ask, and most schools probably wouldn't give out that information to just anyone.
    rather harder to fake the diplomas schools here hand out, which are printed on special paper with embossed logos and signed in ink by the graduate and school officials.
    Same with the grade lists.

    And yes, I've encountered companies contacting schools and universities to check the validity of diplomas (never mine AFAIK) in case of irregularities.
    Caused one (now ex)colleague to be fired on the spot.
    He couldn't produce originals, claimed they'd been lost in a fire (which can happen).
    On investigation (there had been customer complaints about his performance, he turned out not to know things that should have been basic knowledge for someone with his claimed education) the schools and universities he claimed to have attended either didn't exist (several were in other countries, you don't delve into that unless you have to because of the cost involved) or had no record of him ever being there (and the one where he had been showed him leaving without the graduation he claimed to have gotten there).

    So checks can be performed, and are performed when needed.
    In this case lawyers were involved too, and the case devolved into a lawsuit where the fraudster was eventually convicted to pay a vast amount in damages to the company as well as the customer who'd lost hundreds of thousands through his incompetence and fraud.

  9. #24
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Nice I suppose there are additional layers of game thoery to be applied here based on the amount of lying and the financial risk of being sued. So perhaps its best to either only lie a little if you intend on keeping the job, or to lie through your teeth and dont even use your real name and soc security number
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

  10. #25
    and the hat of wrongness Salem's Avatar
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    @abachler
    Your approach would only work so long as employers:
    a) don't share information on blacklists of known idiots, trouble-makers, and associated riff-raff.
    b) don't take up references from your previous employer. Whilst most won't openly send a bad reference, the lack of one (or a very neutral one like "good timekeeper") would be very telling. Anything other than entry level usually comes with "offer subject to references".
    c) are not currently employing anyone you may have met before at a previous job, and knows you to be a charlatan.

    Your CV is not the only information channel, so your analysis is broken IMO.

    If you got kicked out of the old job for lying, then getting a new one will be incrementally harder. Sooner or later, the only job you'll have will come with the tag-line "do you want fries with that?".
    If you dance barefoot on the broken glass of undefined behaviour, you've got to expect the occasional cut.
    If at first you don't succeed, try writing your phone number on the exam paper.
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  11. #26
    Super Moderator VirtualAce's Avatar
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    @abachler
    Lying in an interview and/or padding a resume can and will result in termination from an employer. If you do get the job and they find out later that you lied you can still be terminated. If any hiring bonuses were paid out or moving expenses were paid you will be responsible to pay both back to the company.

    Never lie or pad a resume. It makes your legit experience and qualifications look like one big lie.
    Also if you are willing to lie to get the job how do I know your not willing to lie about fixes you made to the code line? How do I know you aren't lying about what needs to be done to fix a bug or to implement a feature? How do I know you aren't lying about the time estimates for a project?

    Never a good idea to lie and I cannot believe you are even suggesting it. Well...actually I can believe you are suggesting it given your past posts...but that doesn't mean you are right.

    Also if you are always looking for the next best thing and that judgement is made solely on the salary then in my opinion you will never find it. There are so many more factors that taken as a whole will determine if the job is right for you. Salary is just one of the factors and if that is all you are concerned about then I really don't think you will ever be completely happy at any job.
    Last edited by VirtualAce; 11-27-2008 at 12:17 PM.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
    Also if you are always looking for the next best thing and that judgement is made solely on the salary then in my opinion you will never find it. There are so many more factors that taken as a whole will determine if the job is right for you. Salary is just one of the factors and if that is all you are concerned about then I really don't think you will ever be completely happy at any job.
    Exactly. All the money in the world isn't worth it if you're suffering through a miserable job all day long and getting sick from the stress...
    "I am probably the laziest programmer on the planet, a fact with which anyone who has ever seen my code will agree." - esbo, 11/15/2008

    "the internet is a scary place to be thats why i dont use it much." - billet, 03/17/2010

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